Type-10 Balance Discussion - How to make the battle cow viable

It'll look great in action photos, if you can ever manage that ...... not easy at the best of times though !
I bought the Midnight Black (not bad) and Galvanised (awesome) packs for it, which makes it even more photogenic.

Flew it for the first time in weeks again last night (after a holiday in Colonia, making do with local ships only), flying low across a planet surface firing all weapons while slowly changing directions made me feel like flying a proper fortress, all that was missing was Ride of the Valkyries playing in the background!

It's got a fair few flaws but I quite like this ship, spoiler included (whoever disagrees, sue me).
 
Re-fitted my mining T-10 into an AX role, couple AX MC turrets in the size 3, two size 3 shard cannons on the other side (good tip re convergence there in Sylow's post btw).
Hmm. Won't to the job in AX CZs. Interceptors there are in combat mode right from the start. They move way too fast to scan them, so you can't sub-target the hearts. You absolutely need the guardian gauss to hit the hearts there. I wouldn't see any effective way of fighting against interceptors in AX CZs without guardian gauss rifles, especially when using a T10.

So having a C2 guardian gauss in the medium belly hardpoint and a C1 in one of the small hardpoints is absolutely essential in my eyes. You can decide between the two shard cannons or a pair of AX MCs. Both can do the job of raw damage, but at least I wouldn't manage to do a good job with either of them against an interceptors heart. (I know that there are pilots around who are leagues better than me. But I believe that even they would have a hard time there, due to the T10s low speed. )
 
Hmm. Won't to the job in AX CZs. Interceptors there are in combat mode right from the start. They move way too fast to scan them, so you can't sub-target the hearts. You absolutely need the guardian gauss to hit the hearts there. I wouldn't see any effective way of fighting against interceptors in AX CZs without guardian gauss rifles, especially when using a T10.

So having a C2 guardian gauss in the medium belly hardpoint and a C1 in one of the small hardpoints is absolutely essential in my eyes. You can decide between the two shard cannons or a pair of AX MCs. Both can do the job of raw damage, but at least I wouldn't manage to do a good job with either of them against an interceptors heart. (I know that there are pilots around who are leagues better than me. But I believe that even they would have a hard time there, due to the T10s low speed. )
I hear you, and you're giving me some options there to consider for sure (I have access to most Guardian gear at this stage so can swap to a Gauss if needs be).

But the idea was to 'float around' in the AX CZ and see how long I survive, taking pot shots at interceptors at best, but more helping with swarms if other players are around, and otherwise focus on scouts in order to rank up my pilot and my combat rank. As far as I observed it in the past as long as you took a shot at an Interceptor and another player or the AI (unlikely) take it out, you still get the bond. Not 100% sure though.

I normally use my Challenger for goid hunting but am a bit bored of it, this is just a little challenge to see how it fares in general.
 
I hear you, and you're giving me some options there to consider for sure (I have access to most Guardian gear at this stage so can swap to a Gauss if needs be).

But the idea was to 'float around' in the AX CZ and see how long I survive, taking pot shots at interceptors at best, but more helping with swarms if other players are around, and otherwise focus on scouts in order to rank up my pilot and my combat rank. As far as I observed it in the past as long as you took a shot at an Interceptor and another player or the AI (unlikely) take it out, you still get the bond. Not 100% sure though.

I normally use my Challenger for goid hunting but am a bit bored of it, this is just a little challenge to see how it fares in general.
Ah, oki. I get it. Then i wish you all the fun and good success there. :)
 
I think the problems of the ship are far too great and complex to begin with.
I can almoust say they should start from scratch because there are far too many problems to make it viable the way it is.

First of all what makes a ship good in combat?

Any half good player can anwer that, in combat what you need is a ship that handles well enought to be effective (good time on target/manouverability) and have good weapon placementes for fixed weapons (that way you can be creative with your weapon set-up as needed). (and have a ship that normaly is not too easy to be hit by any weapon)

And this ship doesn't have neither of that.

Its too big making any fixed weapon stands out agains’t it especially the moust used weapons in pvp like rails and plasma acelerators. Having 5 hardness more than corvette or cutter doen’t mean S h i t because you are a sitting duck sucking plasma (absolute damage) and rails that ignores you hardness.

You have a class 8 for shield but you shield is weaker than a 7 corvette so what are you even getting out of having this ship? So far nothing.

You have more hardpoints but the placement is the worst in the game hands down for fixed weapons and because they are only 3 and 2 in size the damage is lower because class 3 and 2 has low penetration on moust weapons. This makes this big ship “effective” at killing medium ships at best because they have low hardness and weaker again’t the top 3 because they have better weapon placements and decent armor.

You got to admit that if you are willing to build a ship to deal with medium ships there are far better options out there with less drawbacks so there is no point in using this ship for this.

The problem of this ship is that he is too big and fat and in this game this HAS NO VALUE.

I agree that the hull mass should be lowered.

This ship hull mass is the same of 3 F u c k i n g Anacondas... yeah, put three anacondas one on the top of the other and one type 10 and say what looks heavier? for this game is the type 10. Anaconda was not made for combat and is nimble compared to type 10.

the type 9 that is not a combat oriented ship has less hull mass than the type 10 (350t less)

and it had two size 8 and one 7 and the type 10 has one 8 and one 7. If speed and manouverability are important parts of combat why the ship is heavier than a cargo ship? Shouldnt lakon tried to make it lighter? Not heavier?

Help me understand this... the type 10 lost a lot in ship space and got heavier? does that make any f u c k i n g sense?

This ship counters logic. You can argue that it can have bigger internals than the type 9 but the same can be said of the conda that has 3 times less hull mass and almoust the same number of weapons.

Does having 3 times the hull mas of an anaconda is worth having the 10 increase in hardness and a class eight shield that is weaker than a 7 in the big 3? the aswer is no.
H E L L NO.

The corvette and cutter has 70 hardness only five less than this ship and has less hull mass (a lot less).

The cutter is heavier (1100t) but it can have 8 trusters so that high hull mass weight doesnt matter.

And because cutter is fast as a torpedo hitting fixed weapons on it is not easy as it is to hit a type 10 that after it commit to a fight it can’t outrun no one and is a sitting duck.

In the best case cenario even if you win with this ship the target just need to run when the shields go down and there is nothing you can do about that.

If you have a type 10 you probably noticed that it could have AT LEAST FOUR more hardpoints just in the upper part.

Yeah it could have a ridiculously number of hardpoints because it is excessive big.
But this game restricted the hardpoints, making it size and weight nothing more than disadvantages. (im not saying that they should increase the hardpoints by four or something like that, im just saying that if the game didnt have restrictions the ship would have more hardpoints because it could have)

There is a lot of unusued and worthless space in this ship and that is not doing it any favors.

Since the game can't or wont increase the hardpoints count because it could mess with balance at least lower the disadvantages of the ship that makes it almoust unplayable.

Things that could improve in my opnion.

The Basics

lower the hull mass to at least 1000t from the 1200t.

That way shield strenght will increase a little and the ship will be a little more fast.

It will be heavier than Vette like it was before and will be a little lighter than cutter. (since cutter has 8 thruster he can be a little heavier and will still outperform type 10 like it always have)

Increase the hardness to 80 so that is stands out amoung the other ships.

Change hardpoint placement so that in the top all hardpoints are size 3 (large) and in the bottom are the size 2 (medium) (makes more sense having turrets or gimbailed in the top side)

Make the three medium hardpoints close and effective at using fixed weapons. (this will make skilled players stand out in the ship because they will have a reason to aiming at something)

Give one extra SMALL hardpoint. (well placed like the rest). So that the ship has 4 size 3 / 3 size 2/ and 3 size 1. Yeah 10 hardpoints total.

In case you are wondering if another small hardpoint would be game breaking let me say a few things.

This ship has a very low time on target and is very weak against chaft and that is not gonna change. So to me makes sense that the time that you do have on target is better rewarded so that it feels like it does packs a punch when it makes all hardpoints hot on target. This will also make unadivased to face this ship upfront or using the cheese (reverski) against this ship. The smalls hardpoints are good for rails.

To be honest i dont think that those changes would be game breaking or make this thing op or even more usable but then again there is only one way to find out.

sorry about the english and the big wall of text. This ships problems are far too many to put in few words.
 
I think the problems of the ship are far too great and complex to begin with.
I can almoust say they should start from scratch because there are far too many problems to make it viable the way it is.

First of all what makes a ship good in combat?

Any half good player can anwer that, in combat what you need is a ship that handles well enought to be effective (good time on target/manouverability) and have good weapon placementes for fixed weapons (that way you can be creative with your weapon set-up as needed). (and have a ship that normaly is not too easy to be hit by any weapon)

And this ship doesn't have neither of that.

Its too big making any fixed weapon stands out agains’t it especially the moust used weapons in pvp like rails and plasma acelerators. Having 5 hardness more than corvette or cutter doen’t mean S h i t because you are a sitting duck sucking plasma (absolute damage) and rails that ignores you hardness.

You have a class 8 for shield but you shield is weaker than a 7 corvette so what are you even getting out of having this ship? So far nothing.

You have more hardpoints but the placement is the worst in the game hands down for fixed weapons and because they are only 3 and 2 in size the damage is lower because class 3 and 2 has low penetration on moust weapons. This makes this big ship “effective” at killing medium ships at best because they have low hardness and weaker again’t the top 3 because they have better weapon placements and decent armor.

You got to admit that if you are willing to build a ship to deal with medium ships there are far better options out there with less drawbacks so there is no point in using this ship for this.

The problem of this ship is that he is too big and fat and in this game this HAS NO VALUE.

I agree that the hull mass should be lowered.

This ship hull mass is the same of 3 F u c k i n g Anacondas... yeah, put three anacondas one on the top of the other and one type 10 and say what looks heavier? for this game is the type 10. Anaconda was not made for combat and is nimble compared to type 10.

the type 9 that is not a combat oriented ship has less hull mass than the type 10 (350t less)

and it had two size 8 and one 7 and the type 10 has one 8 and one 7. If speed and manouverability are important parts of combat why the ship is heavier than a cargo ship? Shouldnt lakon tried to make it lighter? Not heavier?

Help me understand this... the type 10 lost a lot in ship space and got heavier? does that make any f u c k i n g sense?

This ship counters logic. You can argue that it can have bigger internals than the type 9 but the same can be said of the conda that has 3 times less hull mass and almoust the same number of weapons.

Does having 3 times the hull mas of an anaconda is worth having the 10 increase in hardness and a class eight shield that is weaker than a 7 in the big 3? the aswer is no.
H E L L NO.

The corvette and cutter has 70 hardness only five less than this ship and has less hull mass (a lot less).

The cutter is heavier (1100t) but it can have 8 trusters so that high hull mass weight doesnt matter.

And because cutter is fast as a torpedo hitting fixed weapons on it is not easy as it is to hit a type 10 that after it commit to a fight it can’t outrun no one and is a sitting duck.

In the best case cenario even if you win with this ship the target just need to run when the shields go down and there is nothing you can do about that.

If you have a type 10 you probably noticed that it could have AT LEAST FOUR more hardpoints just in the upper part.

Yeah it could have a ridiculously number of hardpoints because it is excessive big.
But this game restricted the hardpoints, making it size and weight nothing more than disadvantages. (im not saying that they should increase the hardpoints by four or something like that, im just saying that if the game didnt have restrictions the ship would have more hardpoints because it could have)

There is a lot of unusued and worthless space in this ship and that is not doing it any favors.

Since the game can't or wont increase the hardpoints count because it could mess with balance at least lower the disadvantages of the ship that makes it almoust unplayable.

Things that could improve in my opnion.

The Basics

lower the hull mass to at least 1000t from the 1200t.

That way shield strenght will increase a little and the ship will be a little more fast.

It will be heavier than Vette like it was before and will be a little lighter than cutter. (since cutter has 8 thruster he can be a little heavier and will still outperform type 10 like it always have)

Increase the hardness to 80 so that is stands out amoung the other ships.

Change hardpoint placement so that in the top all hardpoints are size 3 (large) and in the bottom are the size 2 (medium) (makes more sense having turrets or gimbailed in the top side)

Make the three medium hardpoints close and effective at using fixed weapons. (this will make skilled players stand out in the ship because they will have a reason to aiming at something)

Give one extra SMALL hardpoint. (well placed like the rest). So that the ship has 4 size 3 / 3 size 2/ and 3 size 1. Yeah 10 hardpoints total.

In case you are wondering if another small hardpoint would be game breaking let me say a few things.

This ship has a very low time on target and is very weak against chaft and that is not gonna change. So to me makes sense that the time that you do have on target is better rewarded so that it feels like it does packs a punch when it makes all hardpoints hot on target. This will also make unadivased to face this ship upfront or using the cheese (reverski) against this ship. The smalls hardpoints are good for rails.

To be honest i dont think that those changes would be game breaking or make this thing op or even more usable but then again there is only one way to find out.

sorry about the english and the big wall of text. This ships problems are far too many to put in few words.
You clearly have not flown this ship with a SLF .... it changes the balance of its power as soon as it is launched, and the T-10 can be used as a battle platform to support the SLF. The two can be made to work well together. To say it has "no value" invites criticism of your premise. Something I can't agree with.

We've had this issue about Anacondas many times before. As soon as you compare anything with an Anaconda all rationale is gone. The Anaconda is an exception in the game, unfortunately.

It's also a fun ship to engineer - a lot of different opinions about the best options for this ship, so there is no one meta that serves every purpose.

And besides, it has a magnificent spoiler.
 
And you
You clearly have not flown this ship with a SLF .... it changes the balance of its power as soon as it is launched, and the T-10 can be used as a battle platform to support the SLF. The two can be made to work well together. To say it has "no value" invites criticism of your premise. Something I can't agree with.

We've had this issue about Anacondas many times before. As soon as you compare anything with an Anaconda all rationale is gone. The Anaconda is an exception in the game, unfortunately.

It's also a fun ship to engineer - a lot of different opinions about the best options for this ship, so there is no one meta that serves every purpose.

And besides, it has a magnificent spoiler.
And you clearly have not done the reading right.

"The problem of this ship is that he is too big and fat and in this game this HAS NO VALUE."

What i said that had no value in this game is the big and fat part. I was not talking about the ship itself (that is something that you came up with)

Being big and fat are indeed caracteristics of the ship but they have no value in itself. They are disadvantages.

The SLF you mentioned is not something specific of the type 10 so the same can be said of almoust any ship that can run with one.

If i didnt liked the ship i wouldn't have posted. And if i didnt have played with it i wouldn know half of what i said and pointed out.

Next time try to be less acid. And maybe i can "agree" with you.
 
And you


And you clearly have not done the reading right.

"The problem of this ship is that he is too big and fat and in this game this HAS NO VALUE."

What i said that had no value in this game is the big and fat part. I was not talking about the ship itself (that is something that you came up with)

Being big and fat are indeed caracteristics of the ship but they have no value in itself. They are disadvantages.

The SLF you mentioned is not something specific of the type 10 so the same can be said of almoust any ship that can run with one.

If i didnt liked the ship i wouldn't have posted. And if i didnt have played with it i wouldn know half of what i said and pointed out.

Next time try to be less acid. And maybe i can "agree" with you.
The ship was derived deliberately in-game from a T-9, as a rapid-build answer to the initial Thargoid attacks. That's why it is big and fat.
 
Ah, oki. I get it. Then i wish you all the fun and good success there. :)
Thanks... although it didn't last long. Like, less than 30 seconds.

And not because of goids, nope. One of those Far God worshippers gankers was camping in the AX CZ. Quite frankly, I'm all up for roleplaying but this particular version of PvP feels particularly cheap and makes a player wing of 4 seem fairer. I didn't even notice him shooting at me until my shields, PP and FSD were all shot, hull at less than 50%, no chance to even fire a single shot back.

Lost my soon-to-be Dangerous pilot too (100m credit sink hole). Ugh.

Anyways, sorry for the derail. Although at least I can confirm that the T-10 is indeed unfit for PvP (had 5,500+ hull which melted like butter, too).
 
The ship was derived deliberately in-game from a T-9, as a rapid-build answer to the initial Thargoid attacks. That's why it is big and fat.
And that makes its size an advantage?

that is only one explanation to what where the toughts behind the ships creation and purpose.

Some might said that is just one excuse for poor ship development.

i dont really see why you even pointed that out.
 
Thanks... although it didn't last long. Like, less than 30 seconds.

And not because of goids, nope. One of those Far God worshippers gankers was camping in the AX CZ. Quite frankly, I'm all up for roleplaying but this particular version of PvP feels particularly cheap and makes a player wing of 4 seem fairer. I didn't even notice him shooting at me until my shields, PP and FSD were all shot, hull at less than 50%, no chance to even fire a single shot back.

Lost my soon-to-be Dangerous pilot too (100m credit sink hole). Ugh.

Anyways, sorry for the derail. Although at least I can confirm that the T-10 is indeed unfit for PvP (had 5,500+ hull which melted like butter, too).
I feel your pain. The credits aren't something but the pilot is a heavy loss especially if you got it on the lowest rank and build it up. (that way he consumes less credits in case you dont know)

What ship or ships did that to you? what weapons they where using?
 
I feel your pain. The credits aren't something but the pilot is a heavy loss especially if you got it on the lowest rank and build it up. (that way he consumes less credits in case you dont know)

What ship or ships did that to you? what weapons they where using?
Yeah exactly, I have 800m in cash so no bother there, but the pilot I trained up from Harmless, even liked the name (which I forgot already lol). Think the highest I got a pilot was Dangerous, would like to have an Elite one just to see how good they are, but to be honest after yet another loss I'm not sure whether I'll bother again until I reach Combat Elite.

Think it was a Cutter but not sure. The radar was a big mess of red flashes, the instance already had half a dozen scouts and a couple of interceptors within range. Once I realised it was another player I just waited for my demise as I couldn't do anything. Too slow to boost away, and I couldn't engage the FSD anyways.

I chased one of those Far Godders away before but that was in my Vette. Not a big fan of that bunch I have to say. If you want to fight then do it on a level playing field.

Aaaanyways, I tried once more, with merely an Expert pilot and in Solo. Had to leave once the 2 interceptors spawned, hull held out ok but as you say it's a sitting duck, it's almost comical. My thrusters are only G3 so I realise not perfect but still - turning is so slow you can just about keep up with scouts but they gain distance so quickly you just waste a lot of ammo.

Experiment failed I would say - will stick to medium ships again for AX fun, and let the T-10 do its thing mining in a RES - there it does excel.
 
Yeah exactly, I have 800m in cash so no bother there, but the pilot I trained up from Harmless, even liked the name (which I forgot already lol). Think the highest I got a pilot was Dangerous, would like to have an Elite one just to see how good they are, but to be honest after yet another loss I'm not sure whether I'll bother again until I reach Combat Elite.

Think it was a Cutter but not sure. The radar was a big mess of red flashes, the instance already had half a dozen scouts and a couple of interceptors within range. Once I realised it was another player I just waited for my demise as I couldn't do anything. Too slow to boost away, and I couldn't engage the FSD anyways.

I chased one of those Far Godders away before but that was in my Vette. Not a big fan of that bunch I have to say. If you want to fight then do it on a level playing field.

Aaaanyways, I tried once more, with merely an Expert pilot and in Solo. Had to leave once the 2 interceptors spawned, hull held out ok but as you say it's a sitting duck, it's almost comical. My thrusters are only G3 so I realise not perfect but still - turning is so slow you can just about keep up with scouts but they gain distance so quickly you just waste a lot of ammo.

Experiment failed I would say - will stick to medium ships again for AX fun, and let the T-10 do its thing mining in a RES - there it does excel.

Those players are the worst. I lost one dangerous gal a few weeks back is very frustrating (dont remember the name too lol).

Its nice of you to share the experience with the rest of us especially one unfortunate like this one. Nothing beats experience if i may say.

At least anyone that goes targoid hunting with the type 10 should keep in mind that there will be a lot of testing involved and things may go sour.

its a shame that you have to outperform in the ship to do what is intended to do.

Especialy when a medium ship does the job well without the drama of having to change pips to engine every time to turn to face something.

Those people that are having a better luck with it agains't targoids probably has the ship full enginered.

The thrusters G5 drag drives are probably the moust important one in that regard.
Other than that i cannot say. Dont have mutch experience on targoid hunting with type 10.

Lets hope Devs give this big bird a little more love in the updates do come.

best of luck
 
The devs would need to completely change how thrusters work if that was the case. Even the lowest E rated thrusters on all ships are capable of generating a mind boggling amount of thrust. Atmospheric drag with the current thrusters would be a complete non issue.

Now there would be an advantage to a lifting body (or ugly spoiler) if our ships had control surfaces and the ability to glide, no ship currently has that, it is all thruster based. Even the Imperial Eagle would turn into a brick with thrusters or the main engine unavailable.

Considering we scoop from stars, heat build up from parasitic drag would also be a non issue. I mentioned this way back in Horizons beta, the devs unfortunately painted themselves into a corner, the original plan (or it least what MB stated) was to make thrusters much weaker on planets, meaning heavy ships would struggle in high g's, and atmopsheric flight would benefit from a more streamlined hull. What we got was unlimited thrust on all thruster class and rating.
Well, that's what I get for wondering aloud after a few shots. Schooled I was. But, I stand by what I've said here and in other threads ... I'm liking my Type 10 more each day. Nuff said ... not sayin' no more.

GL HF Commanders
 
You clearly have not flown this ship with a SLF .... it changes the balance of its power as soon as it is launched, and the T-10 can be used as a battle platform to support the SLF. The two can be made to work well together. To say it has "no value" invites criticism of your premise. Something I can't agree with.

We've had this issue about Anacondas many times before. As soon as you compare anything with an Anaconda all rationale is gone. The Anaconda is an exception in the game, unfortunately.

It's also a fun ship to engineer - a lot of different opinions about the best options for this ship, so there is no one meta that serves every purpose.

And besides, it has a magnificent spoiler.
I fly this ship in PVP for what its worth and I will be honest its a awful ship in everything I have tried it in other than looking cool, the SLF is worth nothing on any ship... they get one shot both in PVP and PVE, vs AX stuff its even the same. SLFs are glass cannons and I mean glass.

You also don't need to compare the T10 to the Anaconda to wonder why the T10 is in such a bad state, the Corvette and Cutter provide perfect examples.
 
I fly this ship in PVP for what its worth and I will be honest its a awful ship in everything I have tried it in other than looking cool, the SLF is worth nothing on any ship... they get one shot both in PVP and PVE, vs AX stuff its even the same. SLFs are glass cannons and I mean glass.

You also don't need to compare the T10 to the Anaconda to wonder why the T10 is in such a bad state, the Corvette and Cutter provide perfect examples.
I'm speaking from memory here, because I don't use the T-10 presently.

In HRES, for example, SLF distracts the attacker long enough for me to bring my main weapons (gimballed beam lasers) to bear. As the SLF is firing, support it with those weapons and then concentrate fire on the enemy, regardless of what the SLF is doing. Then move on to the next target and do the same again. (It may depend on the SLF pilot rank - If I remember correctly, I've usually used Expert.)

It's much tougher in a CZ, of course, and the SLF can go down quickly. AX, probably even faster.

With PvP mileage will vary greatly and I don't have a lot of experience with it. But I have used the SLF to escape interdiction successfully, because it distracts the Pirate Commander just long enough for me to gather my thoughts and hi-wake. But not always. :cautious:
 
I'm speaking from memory here, because I don't use the T-10 presently.

In HRES, for example, SLF distracts the attacker long enough for me to bring my main weapons (gimballed beam lasers) to bear. As the SLF is firing, support it with those weapons and then concentrate fire on the enemy, regardless of what the SLF is doing. Then move on to the next target and do the same again. (It may depend on the SLF pilot rank - If I remember correctly, I've usually used Expert.)

It's much tougher in a CZ, of course, and the SLF can go down quickly. AX, probably even faster.

With PvP mileage will vary greatly and I don't have a lot of experience with it. But I have used the SLF to escape interdiction successfully, because it distracts the Pirate Commander just long enough for me to gather my thoughts and hi-wake. But not always. :cautious:
Yes even in a HIRes is no use really unless flown by a real player, the reality of the situation is that a fighter has pretty much 1HP and at some point something will look at it funny, further more the DPS of the fighters are incorrect as that is simply paper DPS, the effective DPS is far lower due to damage drop off.
 
The only tangible value I'm getting out of using SLFs is by using them mining in a RES (Standard and below; above that becomes tricky as you tend to get ganged up on by NPC pirates) - in a T-10 of course;). The SLF taking care of NPCs while carrying on mining is a surprisingly fun activity, and the bounties are a nice little bonus, even though minor in actual credit value. It's good if you want a bit more action in your mining experience.

The other reason is having them for attacking pirate wings - they can take care of or at least distract the Eagles etc. while I focus on the leader.

But given how expensive they are (both in credits, especially while having their trotters up in the lounge while I do non combat stuff, but also in Combat rank) I really don't know if it's really worth training them up to Elite.

Are they that noticeably better than say an Expert? I felt my (now dead) pilot, who was half way between Master/Dangerous, was able to survive quite a bit longer, but really not sure if he was actually dealing more damage, too. I still found that I had to do most of the work dealing even with smaller ships.
 
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