The game is so ripe for Atmospheric Landing!

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
LOL I don't think FD dares to cheap out on the atmo planet thing.
With games like Star Citizen and Inifinity Battlescape showing great and seamless space to atmosphere transition....... while in ED, not only are we limited to airless rock, but actually have that silly loading/transition message when going between OC and Glide.... LOL....

i would say that FD should be working on making this seamless, and at the same time making some good re-entry mechanics.
Otherwise, they would lose that battle to two UNRELEASED titles in Alpha. ROFLMAO....

Of course, not cheaping out isn't a license to drag their feet about it either. There're going to be many more games out there coming that will push the boundary in flight and space sims. All it takes is one good one, and this game will be left in the dust, with only the cult following left playing.
The transition you mention is not about map loading (Elite star system maps are seamless) but about network and player&ai contact instancing.
 

dxm55

Banned
Your ships falls like a rock at 0.02g. Which might be rather slow compare to earth. It's just that the helium won't do much to stop you apart from friction. :)

By the way, on planets without atmosphere your ship would fall exactly the same as a rock. Just like a bowling ball and a feather fall at the same speed.

Source: https://youtu.be/E43-CfukEgs
Exactly. In fact on a planet with a heavier, denser atmosphere, your ship will fall slower due to air resistance.
And a poor attempt at reentry might even see your ship skip off the atmosphere instead of going in.
 

dxm55

Banned
The transition you mention is not about map loading (Elite star system maps are seamless) but about network and player&ai contact instancing.
Honestly, I don't really bother much with exactly what it is. It's doing something, and whether it's loading a map or connecting players up, I don't really care.
I just know that it makes the whole game look less immersive than its rivals.

I think FD can solve this issue by simply instancing only ONCE when a player gets into a system via hyperspace. Because you will take some time to go through witchspace, that's the big loading screentime to instance an entire solar system. That's all it should need.

So, the entire system.... Whether it's in supercruise, real time in deep space, in a station, on any planet in the system should be in a single instance.
And only players joining it via jumping in, or leaving by jumping out should have any instancing activity.

If it isn't, then we now know why NPCs suddenly appear and disappear. They're not persistent, and neither are players.
And hence, the MMO portion of this game is broken.

Yes we already know it isn't a true MMO. But if even in a single solar system players and entities aren't persistent; but instead the game treats every POI, every planet, every station as single/separate rooms or instances, then this game is even more broken than I thought.
 
Exactly. In fact on a planet with a heavier, denser atmosphere, your ship will fall slower due to air resistance.
And a poor attempt at reentry might even see your ship skip off the atmosphere instead of going in.
Re-entry will not be an issue with ships in ED.
 
I'm no physician, but how can you explain why this should happen in an helium environment but not on planets without atmosphere? And about what gravity are we talking here? I doubt with 0.02g anything would fall like a rock, no matter if in helium or not. Or do you fall faster when you sound like mickey mouse? ;)
Yes, because I can't control the stick while rofling when I listen to micky mouse voice.
 
Honestly, I don't really bother much with exactly what it is. It's doing something, and whether it's loading a map or connecting players up, I don't really care.
I just know that it makes the whole game look less immersive than its rivals.
I like the glide mechanic myself. Its pretty much needed for you to get to places most of the time as some of these planets are huge, unlike some of the other games that are mentioned. As to the loading, I don't really notice it, its a fraction of a second for me.

I think FD can solve this issue by simply instancing only ONCE when a player gets into a system via hyperspace. Because you will take some time to go through witchspace, that's the big loading screentime to instance an entire solar system. That's all it should need.
I not so sure about that. Generally instancing is needed in all games to limit the amount of people you can see to reduce lag.

So, the entire system.... Whether it's in supercruise, real time in deep space, in a station, on any planet in the system should be in a single instance.
And only players joining it via jumping in, or leaving by jumping out should have any instancing activity.
That may not be technically possible due to the one to one scale of these systems, unlike other game which are tiny or don't have real systems at all.

If it isn't, then we now know why NPCs suddenly appear and disappear. They're not persistent, and neither are players.
And hence, the MMO portion of this game is broken.
That doesn't make it broken. But it certainly can be improved and NPC's can certainly be semi-persistant or more persistant then what they already are.

Yes we already know it isn't a true MMO. But if even in a single solar system players and entities aren't persistent; but instead the game treats every POI, every planet, every station as single/separate rooms or instances, then this game is even more broken than I thought.
This is factually not true. In normal space you can fly from planet to planet or station to station or planet to station or any other place in the solar system. It would just takes a very long time.

Supercruise is different though. It needs to cheat as we can't actually go faster then the speed of light even in computer games, hence the reason for it being in a seperate area to normal space flight. In Star Citizen, it is not needed as the quantum drive goes at a speed of 0.2c and the systems are tiny with everything artificially close together. ED is one to one and without supercruise it would take a very long time to get to places.
 

dxm55

Banned
I like the glide mechanic myself. Its pretty much needed for you to get to places most of the time as some of these planets are huge, unlike some of the other games that are mentioned. As to the loading, I don't really notice it, its a fraction of a second for me.
I don't have any complaints about the glide mechanics. It brings me down near to the surface in double quick time.
I'd expect it to be the same for atmo planets, but with a huge cosmetic plasma trail, and probably aerodynamic drag, so your speed would get slower as your altitude decreased.



I not so sure about that. Generally instancing is needed in all games to limit the amount of people you can see to reduce lag.

That may not be technically possible due to the one to one scale of these systems, unlike other game which are tiny or don't have real systems at all.
Why not? The size or scale of the system should have nothing to do with instancing. If you have a hard cap of 30 players in a single system, then that's it... whether the system is big or small doesn't matter.


That doesn't make it broken. But it certainly can be improved and NPC's can certainly be semi-persistant or more persistant then what they already are.

This is factually not true. In normal space you can fly from planet to planet or station to station or planet to station or any other place in the solar system. It would just takes a very long time.
It is broken when NPC can appear out of thin air the moment you enter SC our from a planet. Or if you drop out of SC and into a POI or at a planet.
Those NPCs should have to come from somewhere and not just spawn out of thin air. You know those cargo missions where an enemy is sent after you? They always magically spawn behind you the moment you enter SC.

And what is not true? That players can suddenly disappear from your instance when they traverse systems and return? I've the experience where a friend and I met up in a system, jumped into another system.... and .... he.... disappeared into another instance. Then there was another time when we both went farming at Tavernier's Penal colony. Both of us entered the planet from SC... and then suddenly things went weird. He could see me. I could not see him. Obviously instancing was borked.



Supercruise is different though. It needs to cheat as we can't actually go faster then the speed of light even in computer games, hence the reason for it being in a seperate area to normal space flight. In Star Citizen, it is not needed as the quantum drive goes at a speed of 0.2c and the systems are tiny with everything artificially close together. ED is one to one and without supercruise it would take a very long time to get to places.
If what you're saying is true, then there is no true persistence, especially for NPCs. That would mean that every POI, station, planet, in a system is indeed a separate room, including SC itself. Other NPCs and players could just disappear suddenly.

That's why I said that the entire system should exist in a single instance (if it isn't already). The SC part would be the "Ground floor"... a sort of zoomed in map (because of scale and speed) and all the other places, the POIs, the station space, the planets, are scaled down "rooms" that are linked, but still within the same instance.

So if this is already the case, then why is there a need for the transition screen when going in/out of SC and entering glide?
 
I don't have any complaints about the glide mechanics. It brings me down near to the surface in double quick time.
I'd expect it to be the same for atmo planets, but with a huge cosmetic plasma trail, and probably aerodynamic drag, so your speed would get slower as your altitude decreased.
Yup

Why not? The size or scale of the system should have nothing to do with instancing. If you have a hard cap of 30 players in a single system, then that's it... whether the system is big or small doesn't matter.
You are talking about game world area. They are not seperate rooms. The only ones that are different are supercruise and real space.

It is broken when NPC can appear out of thin air the moment you enter SC our from a planet. Or if you drop out of SC and into a POI or at a planet.
Those NPCs should have to come from somewhere and not just spawn out of thin air. You know those cargo missions where an enemy is sent after you? They always magically spawn behind you the moment you enter SC.
Never had an NPC magically spawn behind me in a system. When I enter the system and my scanner starts to work, I scan every ship I can and can tell pretty quickly which one is after me. I suggest you watch your scanner.

And what is not true? That players can suddenly disappear from your instance when they traverse systems and return? I've the experience where a friend and I met up in a system, jumped into another system.... and .... he.... disappeared into another instance. Then there was another time when we both went farming at Tavernier's Penal colony. Both of us entered the planet from SC... and then suddenly things went weird. He could see me. I could not see him. Obviously instancing was borked.
You are talking about network instances. You are just in a different network instance or layer. All MMO's have this to limit how many players you interact with. Unfortunatly you and your friend were put in a different instance layer.

If what you're saying is true, then there is no true persistence, especially for NPCs. That would mean that every POI, station, planet, in a system is indeed a separate room, including SC itself. Other NPCs and players could just disappear suddenly.
No that is not what I am saying. If you stay in normal space, everything is there, you can travel there, there are no seperate rooms, that is one whole game world you are in. But it would take you potentially 100s of years to fly there. That is what Supercruise is for.

That's why I said that the entire system should exist in a single instance (if it isn't already). The SC part would be the "Ground floor"... a sort of zoomed in map (because of scale and speed) and all the other places, the POIs, the station space, the planets, are scaled down "rooms" that are linked, but still within the same instance.
That is how it works apart from in normal space everything is in one huge room, not seperate rooms.

So if this is already the case, then why is there a need for the transition screen when going in/out of SC and entering glide?
When you are in glide, you are in normal space, you are not in supercruise, so the transition is going from SC to normal space/glide. When lifting off from a planetary base I saw a ship fly past me in glide mode. It was stupidly fast and happy it didn't hit me.

SC has to cheat as stated as even computer games cannot travel faster then the speed of light, hence the reason why it cheats. How it does it I don't know as I am not a programmer, but that is the reason why there are two levels, normal space and supercruise..[/QUOTE]
 
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Because dry air on the Earth contains 78.09% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.04% carbon dioxide, and small amounts of other gases.
Look at the periodic table and see the atomic mass of each of these elements.

Where is Nitrogen, Oxygen (since they're the most abundant) on the periodic table?
Look at their mass, then find helium and tell me what the atomic mass is....

Helium is called a "lighter than air" gas, because it is less dense than air. Helium balloons rise because of a force called buoyancy.
Just like how your air-filled, less-dense-than-water body floats in a swimming pool.
Basic elementary school science.

A dense spacecraft will not float in helium LOL. In fact flying thru a 90+% helium atmosphere, you would experience very little drag due to its low density.

And come to think of it.... perhaps a planet with 0.76G would not likely even be able to hold a helium atmosphere. Without sufficient gravity and density, most of that stuff would boil away into space. You'd need something as massive as a gas giant to hold light gases like helium and hydrogen in...
Helium (or anything else) can't be lighter than vacuum.
I was comparing to planets without any atmospheres (you even quote that part!), a condition we meet all the time in ED as all planets we land on have no atmospheres. Comparing to "the density of our atmosphere" is irrelevant in this context.
You made a lot of words but still didn't answer my question: How do you explain falling faster in helium than in no atmospheres (cause that was the context)? Which was at least what your first comment ("A helium balloon floats because it's lighter than air, which means the density of our atmosphere") suggested.
 
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Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
Why not? The size or scale of the system should have nothing to do with instancing. If you have a hard cap of 30 players in a single system, then that's it... whether the system is big or small doesn't matter.
It does. Why would the game need to keep in your instance (and therefore use network bandwidth, memory and processing time) a ship, AI or human, or an asset (stations etc) that is in the opposite side of the system, thousands or hundreds of thousands of Ls away from you and with which you have zero chance to interact? If you had a hard cap of 30 players, as you say, and asuming that hard cap is reached, why indeed keep in your instance such a ship and not others that come along much closer to you? Etc.

Elite instances (or islands as I recall devs calling them) focus in those players, assets and AI that are relevant to you in the radius of interaction that makes sense with the game design, sensors, speeds, weapons systems, interdiction mechanics etc.

As for the games you offer as examples, Star Citizen have precisely tried to do what you described incurring all kinds of performance issues, on top of serious bugs and glitches. And have now decided to change that philosophy and try and only maintain relevant to you the ships or assets that are in your direct sphere of interaction. CIG calls it Object Container Streaming / Server Meshing, but in essence that solution means getting closer to what FDEV has designed already and leaving behind what you describe.

As for Battlescape I am not very familiar with their instancing and network designs so I can not comment much.
 
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A helium balloon floats because it's lighter than air, which means the density of our atmosphere.
If the atmosphere was mostly helium, only a hydrogen filled balloon would float.
We fuel scoop off of stars for the hydrogen fuel which means our ships have a bag of hydrogen on board, and in a helium atmosphere, they would float like a hot air balloon.
 
We fuel scoop off of stars for the hydrogen fuel which means our ships have a bag of hydrogen on board, and in a helium atmosphere, they would float like a hot air balloon.
I think I misunderstood where the conversation is heading into. But yeah, what's the problem? We use our thrusters and heading down. There is no 'floating' or 'ballooning', we're flying a spaceship!
 
We should probably still be able to glide like bricks through an atmosphere pressure of roughly 0.76 bar regardless of composition, even if we carry hydrogen balloons around (I doubt we do, I think the fuel scoop processes and compacts whatever it harvests into fuel).

At higher pressures, our ability to push our way through atmosphere would diminish, however, to a point where we wouldn't be able to go further. That means that for some planets, we might never be able to get down to the solid surface (Jupiter springs to mind).

:D S
 
You're saying that it's just gonna be a simple fly-in kinda thing?
Hope not. That would be kinda boring.
But it would probably speed up the feature being brought up live.
That would be the realistic thing to happen. Our ships do not need to aerobreak as they are not travelling at orbital speeds. But I suspect there will be some kind of animation with the glide mechanic.
 
Look at this quite remarkable system with 2 water words (+ 1 ring), 3 terra formables and 1 gas giant with water based life:

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Certainly an amazing system, but when you take a deeper look you'll find something not so obvious: All moons orbiting the gas giant have a relative low surface pressure something between 0.5 and 0.9 atmospheres. Only the inner one, which is of the same type and same low gravity as the other moons, has 89,83 atmospheres:

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Don't know about you but I would so much like to dive in and find out what's so different there...
 
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