CRIME & PUNISHMENT - Notoriety Should not be limited to 10 (& possibly increase time taken for notoriety to decay)

I agree with this completely, I think fdev just has to figure out how to do it without giving everyone their own security force.

Otherwise though, as I previously stated, fdev does seem to consider what people call ganking a legitimate part of the gameplay.
And I have to agree.
If you have read my other posts in here about the invasions, I would love the opportunity to 'gank' my invaders, and if I could I would happily kill them every time I saw them in the game.
They do what the people that don't like being ganked need to also do, play in solo or PG, or just get better.
While you are learning or ranking up and slowly getting better, or foolishly hauling freight in unarmed or otherwise defenseless ships, there is no real good reason to risk getting killed other than to learn from getting killed, solo and pg is there just for that reason.
As much as I dislike that PG and solo players also still affect the BGS and Powerplay, its there for people to stay alive and safe in without fear of others killing them for what might be or might appear to be no good reason.

I have also picked on so called defenseless player. simply for being in my system, doing trade with the wrong station and totally ignoring my presence.
I had to kill them several times just to get their attention and to talk. Until I killed them a few times they refused to communicate.
Call them newbies if you will, I'm sure they were, but flying t-7's and ignoring a fellow cmdr in a vette is not wise, they switched to solo and that was fine, even though they continued to cause me problems, at least I got the opportunity to talk to them and ask them questions and even tried to steer them to better systems.

FWIW, it actually does me very little good to kill like that, I can fight the trade easily by simple methods. but attitude and ignoring is not any way to get along in the game either.
As a teenager I also got in fights lots with people with attitude, often total idiots that felt they were above those around them. its a mild form of bullying and for some of us with real short tempers was often good enough reason to break noses.

In the game, I get that they had no idea or even cared about the BGS, but now they know, and they also know why they got killed several times.
After lots of encounters like that a person eventually can easily get to the point of, here we go again and why bother to get frustrated if they choose to ignore, and what the heck, its just faster and easier to kill them a bunch of times and see if they go away.
I normally do NOT act that way nor do I care to, but I have my bad days too, for some folks those bad days last years. I know that because I grew up being constantly bullied by idiots and just like this game, I learned how to defend and fight back. Anyone can still be caught off guard, but if you never learn how to defend or fight back, then you are always going to be a target.
And I know there are lots of players that simply don't want to kill anything, sadly they need to remain in Solo or PG because these ships have weapons and they will be used.
Consider how boring a game like Unreal Tournament would be if all the opposition ever did was run and hide. Not a lot different here, really.
You and I are game content, its that simple.
And whatever C&P develops into won't make any difference to those who wish to kill for fun, consider what gun laws IRL do, all they do is keep guns out of law abiding citizens hands, real criminals,killers, will never be without what they need to commit crimes. And for many, knowing that getting caught could mean death or jail, rarely prevents them from doing what they are going to do.
Thanks for the added information - interesting to learn more of this stuff from a BGS player.

I think, having read your posts, if Frontier developed minor factions more - gave players (such as you) greater control of the faction - it might be worth getting involved, especially if it could all be interlinked with PowerPlay and perhaps other elements of the game.

If a player was able to become faction leader, and direct NPC ships, and message other players allied to the faction (providing instructions, or whatever), that'd be great.
 
I was thinking about this sort of thing this morning, can't even remember why. Ended up brainstorming something I think would be neat to see:
  1. New crime added, simply called "Piracy". This is a bounty-level crime that you commit when firing a hatchbreaker at someone, instead of it being "Assault" as it is now. It would be treated as a similar level to trespass now, where it's still a bounty that makes it legal to shoot you, but doesn't summon authority ships.
  2. Interdiction also upgraded to the lowest of the low level bounty, but again doesn't summon authority ships until you actually assault someone.
  3. If a player has zero notoriety and keeps their nose clean for 2 hours (same as losing a point of notoriety they don't have) any bounties <5000cr are downgraded into fines.
  4. If a player does have notoriety, ignore that part about cops not showing up. If a notorious player interdicts someone, for instance, the cops won't wait for them to start shooting.
  5. optional: have the cops show up at a security level 1 grade lower for piracy and two grades lower for interdiction? ie. lowsec won't come for these crimes at all, medsec will only come for piracy (on a lowsec response timer), and highsec come for interdictions with the reponse you'd expect for an assault in lowsec? Might actually make low/medium/high sec mean something.
tl;dr is that doing just about any crime while notorious would bring the cops running, but nonviolent crimes would bring a slower (or nonexistent) police response while giving you a bounty that makes it legal for your victim to defend themselves.
Interesting ideas there. I'm not much of a pirate, so I cannot comment as to whether the changes would be good or bad for piracy.

(See: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/crime-punishment-reputation-loss-for-committing-crimes.521359 for further Crime & Punishment suggested improvements).
 
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Having given this more though, I think it's entirely possible for notoriety to outwardly be capped at 10 - the max figure displayed should be 10 - but there should be an underlying counter that records the amount of murders and this recorded total of murders should be calculated added to the total cool-down time a player must wait for notoriety levels to settle at 0.

So, per my other recent suggestion, while notoriety is displayed as being level 10 there should be an counter that adds a 2 hour cool-down for every clean player killed (no upper limit), 20 clean players killed = 40 hour cool-down to 0 notoriety, 40 clean players killed = 80 hours cool-down to 0 notoriety, etc. Thus, someone who has killed 40 clean players and has a displayed notoriety of 10 will have to wait 80 hours to have their notoriety set to 0. I think that's reasonable and fair.
 
heh, sort of reasonable.

Care to join my faction and aid in the oppositions removal or otherwise keeping them under control and from taking my systems, and see what you think of that aspect of it all?
;)
 
heh, sort of reasonable.

Care to join my faction and aid in the oppositions removal or otherwise keeping them under control and from taking my systems, and see what you think of that aspect of it all?
;)
Unfortunately, despite your concerns regarding faction control, unless your faction provides a legitimate means to engage (as in, to destroy without it being considered unlawful) with other factions (the opposition) that are considered adversaries, it's simply not lawful to be going around murdering clean commanders just because they may be trading or doing missions in a certain system - perhaps for an opposing faction - despite the fact they may be working (perhaps unwittingly) to undermine your own allied faction.

As per my other recent suggestion, murder should come with a heft cost - loss of faction reputation where such action has not been officially sanctioned by such and such a faction (or the faction is not Anarchy/criminal), as well as the foregoing suggestions previously discussed.
 
nah, its just npc's, the cmdrs never seem to come out into the open, and even if they did, its not worth anything extra or special to kill them

as for legitimate means, again that's a perspective, some of my systems offer missions to kill their citizens, some offer missions to destroy their passenger ships..so Like I said before its often a perspective thing, as far as I can tell, there is not one thing in the game that is considered legal or illegal honest or dis-honest by all factions and that goes all the way to the top of the folks in charge of the power play, the leaders. somewhere to some one, they are being dishonest and performing illegal acts as well.
 
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nah, its just npc's, the cmdrs never seem to come out into the open, and even if they did, its not worth anything extra or special to kill them

as for legitimate means, again that's a perspective, some of my systems offer missions to kill their citizens, some offer missions to destroy their passenger ships..so Like I said before its often a perspective thing, as far as I can tell, there is not one thing in the game that is considered legal or illegal honest or dis-honest by all factions and that goes all the way to the top of the folks in charge of the power play, the leaders. somewhere to some one, they are being dishonest and performing illegal acts as well.
The game does not differentiate between NPC and human commanders. Also, the game has serious problems with gankers and griefers running riot in systems (supposed High Security, as well - as well as camping around Engineer Bases looking for easy kills) as things currenty stand (I know from recent experience). I'd hope Frontier takes steps to sort out these issues, as it does negatively affect the game - definitely OPEN play.
 
Any ideas about how to incentive criminal play and make it interesting and rewarding?

Too much of these discussions focus on punishment alone.
True enough. However, currently the situation is that crime and committing crime is extremely easy - especially the in-game murder of other 'clean' commanders (even in supposed High Security systems). I know this for a fact, as I've seen it, been involved in it, and had multiple ship destruction inflicted upon me due to it.

If hunting for a suitable victim to pirate - perhaps with a haul of void opals or the like - or the other added features (hacking terminals and bays on faction bases), isn't currently enough, I'm not sure what else to suggest.

It's a fact, in OPEN at any rate, that there are players who simply want to kill others 'just for the fun of it'. This particular type of player isn't interested in robbing what you may be hauling, this player just want to see a fellow human player blown to pieces - an enjoys doing it.

I'm not trying to prevent that behaviour completely - just provide them with a more balanced player experience (currently, the consequences such players experience related to punishment is laughable - you'd be hard pressed to convince me otherwise).

In High Security systems, such players should find it tough to act with impunity - killing at will. And if other human players can't take them out (a single player against 4 - 5 in a wing stands little chance), then the AI should be good enough to challenge them, and present them with the rebuy screen now and again.
 
Really good point!

Would have been even better with the verb "incentivise" 😁
Fixed! Now, do you have anything else constructive to offer?

True enough. However, currently the situation is that crime and committing crime is extremely easy - especially the in-game murder of other 'clean' commanders (even in supposed High Security systems). I know this for a fact, as I've seen it, been involved in it, and had multiple ship destruction inflicted upon me due to it.

If hunting for a suitable victim to pirate - perhaps with a haul of void opals or the like - or the other added features (hacking terminals and bays on faction bases), isn't currently enough, I'm not sure what else to suggest.

It's a fact, in OPEN at any rate, that there are players who simply want to kill others 'just for the fun of it'. This particular type of player isn't interested in robbing what you may be hauling, this player just want to see a fellow human player blown to pieces - an enjoys doing it.

I'm not trying to prevent that behaviour completely - just provide them with a more balanced player experience (currently, the consequences such players experience related to punishment is laughable - you'd be hard pressed to convince me otherwise).

In High Security systems, such players should find it tough to act with impunity - killing at will. And if other human players can't take them out (a single player against 4 - 5 in a wing stands little chance), then the AI should be good enough to challenge them, and present them with the rebuy screen now and again.
Ultimately you can't balance non-criminal experiences without balancing the criminal ones. In fact, I'm coming to the conclusion you can't really balance anything in this game without a major overhaul of most of the major systems.

Consider this: what was FDEV thinking when after putting tons of work into the C and P system and then developing the current mining system? There were meaningful consequences for crime and punishment but the easy money from Void Opals and Painite makes it irrelevant.

The list goes on and on and on.

It's probably way past time we think of ways to fix things and focus on working with what we've got.
 
Fixed! Now, do you have anything else constructive to offer?



Ultimately you can't balance non-criminal experiences without balancing the criminal ones. In fact, I'm coming to the conclusion you can't really balance anything in this game without a major overhaul of most of the major systems.

Consider this: what was FDEV thinking when after putting tons of work into the C and P system and then developing the current mining system? There were meaningful consequences for crime and punishment but the easy money from Void Opals and Painite makes it irrelevant.

The list goes on and on and on.

It's probably way past time we think of ways to fix things and focus on working with what we've got.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'There were meaningful consequences for crime and punishment but the easy money from Void Opals and Painite makes it irrelevant'...
 
I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'There were meaningful consequences for crime and punishment but the easy money from Void Opals and Painite makes it irrelevant'...
Prior to that update, notoriety didn't exist so commiting a murder was just a flat 5000 per kill (plus any related interdiction/assault charges) and didn't take into account things like relative sizes/engineering of the vessels like it does now. Under new C&P, mass-murdering starting sidewinders in an expensive ship like a conda or 'vette, even an FDL, gets expensive quickly, so you can rapidly end up with a very high price on your head that could bankrupt you if someone got lucky and took you out (even if they only got 2M for it).

Then void opals and painite came along and these billion-credit bounties can be offset by just a few hours of work.
 
I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'There were meaningful consequences for crime and punishment but the easy money from Void Opals and Painite makes it irrelevant'...
The current C and P came out with notoriety and bounties that scaled based on your ship, your engineering, and the ship and engineering of your target. The higher your notoriety, the higher the bounty you received. The specific phrase Sandro used was, "eye watering." And they really were. Go on a killing spree in Eravate in a Cutter you were racking up some serious numbers. Much higher than anyone had seen before.

Beyond that you had ATR and their magical station guns. In theory, a lot of people hoped this was some kind of EvE-like Concord solution. In practice, it was not (in fact, I got kills because of people waiting around expecting ATR to get me - newp!). Turns out ATR was used to address cop killing in BGS by getting involved after a certain threshold was reached. The tactic is still viable but not nearly as strong due to the need to highwake out when ATR shows up.

So how does this play into mining?

Like Screemonster just said: who cares about bounties? Who cares if ATR gets you? Go mining. Job done. Lawl C and P GG FDEV.
 
The current C and P came out with notoriety and bounties that scaled based on your ship, your engineering, and the ship and engineering of your target. The higher your notoriety, the higher the bounty you received. The specific phrase Sandro used was, "eye watering." And they really were. Go on a killing spree in Eravate in a Cutter you were racking up some serious numbers. Much higher than anyone had seen before.

Beyond that you had ATR and their magical station guns. In theory, a lot of people hoped this was some kind of EvE-like Concord solution. In practice, it was not (in fact, I got kills because of people waiting around expecting ATR to get me - newp!). Turns out ATR was used to address cop killing in BGS by getting involved after a certain threshold was reached. The tactic is still viable but not nearly as strong due to the need to highwake out when ATR shows up.

So how does this play into mining?

Like Screemonster just said: who cares about bounties? Who cares if ATR gets you? Go mining. Job done. Lawl C and P GG FDEV.
I see what you mean.

I suppose, what needs to happen is that these supposedly 'rare' minerals need to actually be made rare - harder to find. Reduce the numbers these minerals so that miners have to make do with harvesting normal minerals, while appreciating occasionally finding some of the rarer elements.
 
I see what you mean.

I suppose, what needs to happen is that these supposedly 'rare' minerals need to actually be made rare - harder to find. Reduce the numbers these minerals so that miners have to make do with harvesting normal minerals, while appreciating occasionally finding some of the rarer elements.
Here are more issues.

Got a ten billion credit bounty on your Cutter? No problem. Put all the modules in storage. Sell the Cutter and take the moderate hit on the price. Buy new Cutter. Clean modules. Reinstall modules.

10 billion bounty what? And this has been possible since the current C and P came out.

But let's say you don't even care about the bounty like one of the people in my squadron. Multiple billion credit bounties across human space on his Corvette. But hey, he's careful about it and it's not like there's a lot of ways to make him pay unless you're very dedicated in hunting him down. And even if you did, he'd lose the ship, congratulate you, and then just whip out the Cutter to begin again.

And never mind that he can just menu log and switch to Solo or Private Group if he fancied it. He doesn't, but a lot of criminal types do.

Rabbit hole goes pretty deep when it comes to balancing Elite. See what I mean? :)

EDIT: Suggest nerfing mining payouts in order to punish "griefers and gankers" in Dangerous Discussion. See how quickly you get lumped in with us.
 
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Here are more issues.

Got a ten billion credit bounty on your Cutter? No problem. Put all the modules in storage. Sell the Cutter and take the moderate hit on the price. Buy new Cutter. Clean modules. Reinstall modules.

10 billion bounty what? And this has been possible since the current C and P came out.

But let's say you don't even care about the bounty like one of the people in my squadron. Multiple billion credit bounties across human space on his Corvette. But hey, he's careful about it and it's not like there's a lot of ways to make him pay unless you're very dedicated in hunting him down. And even if you did, he'd lose the ship, congratulate you, and then just whip out the Cutter to begin again.

And never mind that he can just menu log and switch to Solo or Private Group if he fancied it. He doesn't, but a lot of criminal types do.

Rabbit hole goes pretty deep when it comes to balancing Elite. See what I mean? :)
Yes, I see what you mean.

This is why I also posted the following suggestion:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/crime-punishment-reputation-loss-for-committing-crimes.521359/

Ultimately, a persistent criminal should have no upper limit on the time it takes for notoriety to settle back down to 0 from 10. Kill 100 clean commanders, you will have to wait 2 hours for each of those kills for notoriety of 10 to settle down to 0.

Also, reputation should be lost with all factions (besides Anarchy/Criminal) for murder - to the point of them becoming hostile. Reputation will also recover over time to neutral (or quicker by doing missions). Hostile systems would all be anonymous access only (probably jurisdiction wide at notoriety 10), not just system wide.

Clearly, bounties probably need to be connected to both ship and Commander. If in a clean ship, the 'wanted' Commander can still be detected if there's a successful security scan - resulting in the bounty being applied to that ship and all modules. So, even if you sell the ship, and clean the modules, the bounty has not been escaped and will be applied if and when detected by security or a player with a warrant scanner.

Finally, reduce the amount of rare minerals - actually make them rare.

Nothing can be done about menu logging, and mode switching - apart from the effects of the other changes following him into that mode and AI bounty hunters and security scanning and looking for him.
 
Yes, I see what you mean.

This is why I also posted the following suggestion:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/crime-punishment-reputation-loss-for-committing-crimes.521359/

Ultimately, a persistent criminal should have no upper limit on the time it takes for notoriety to settle back down to 0 from 10. Kill 100 clean commanders, you will have to wait 2 hours for each of those kills for notoriety of 10 to settle down to 0.

Also, reputation should be lost with all factions (besides Anarchy/Criminal) for murder - to the point of them becoming hostile. Reputation will also recover over time to neutral (or quicker by doing missions). Hostile systems would all be anonymous access only (probably jurisdiction wide at notoriety 10), not just system wide.

Clearly, bounties probably need to be connected to both ship and Commander. If in a clean ship, the 'wanted' Commander can still be detected if there's a successful security scan - resulting in the bounty being applied to that ship and all modules. So, even if you sell the ship, and clean the modules, the bounty has not been escaped and will be applied if and when detected by security or a player with a warrant scanner.

Finally, reduce the amount of rare minerals - actually make them rare.

Nothing can be done about menu logging, and mode switching - apart from the effects of the other changes following him into that mode and AI bounty hunters and security scanning and looking for him.
I'm going to pretend your changes above are put in place. Presuming everything else remains the same, here's what I could do.

I'd sell all my assets and keep one ship: a gank focused shield tank FDL with a fuel scoop and plasma slug modified G5 plasma accelerators. I'd make a very careful list of anarchies all over human space. Once this was done I would go on a killing spree attacking any Commander I felt like. The weaker the better, in fact, just for the sake of argument.

Obviously ATR and NPCs aren't going to stop me. Commanders couldn't either because I'd simply run the moment anything threatening showed up. I've got a fuel scoop so ammo and fuel aren't a problem. My knowledge of anarchy ports means I can stop anywhere I like if damages require attention.

As long as I'm smart and patient bounties and notoriety don't matter.

So, what do you do?

Never mind the problems of mode switching and menu logging, which I would not engage in because what's the fun in that?
 
The thing is, making mining so lucrative, and having the best prices move around between systems, has made piracy the most fun it's ever been for me.

I robbed about 40 millions worth of void opal, low temp diamonds and painite in a couple hours the other day. It's great.

It's not about the money really, but it does make it a lot more satisfying. Part of that is being able to determine decent spots to look for targets - if minerals were spread out and various, miner wouldn't be flooding to a few systems, meaning piracy would go back to being essentially, wait for a cargo CG to find targets.
 
I'm going to pretend your changes above are put in place. Presuming everything else remains the same, here's what I could do.

I'd sell all my assets and keep one ship: a gank focused shield tank FDL with a fuel scoop and plasma slug modified G5 plasma accelerators. I'd make a very careful list of anarchies all over human space. Once this was done I would go on a killing spree attacking any Commander I felt like. The weaker the better, in fact, just for the sake of argument.

Obviously ATR and NPCs aren't going to stop me. Commander couldn't either because I'd simply run the moment anything threatening showed up. I've got a fuel scoop so ammo and fuel aren't a problem. My knoweldge of anarchy ports means I can stop anywhere I like if damages require attention.

As long as I'm smart and patient bounties and notoriety don't matter.

So, what do you do?

Never mind the problems of mode switching and menu logging, which I would not engage in because what's the fun in that?
Then, the game is working as intended. In one of my comments, in one of the ideas threads (can't remember if it was the one about reputation, or this about crime), I said that the effect would be to force such players out of High Security systems and into the Medium, Low and Anarchy - where they rightly belong. You might make brief incursions into higher Security systems, but you wouldn't be able to stay there for as long as is possible currently.
 
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