CRIME & PUNISHMENT - Notoriety Should not be limited to 10 (& possibly increase time taken for notoriety to decay)

The Crime and Punishment section of the Pilot's Handbook indicates that notoriety increases to a maximum of 10 - with each kill of a 'clean' Commander. Notoriety decreases by 1 point for every 2 hours of 'gameplay'. This appears to mean that a player can expect a maximum of 20 hours of notoriety, regardless of how many 'clean' players are killed once the murdering player has reached a notoriety level of 10 - their maximum punishment will only ever be 20 hours (not taking into account the time they spend on their murdering spree).

Once a player decided to cease the murdering spree for the night, apparently, according to the Handbook, the murderer can simply dock (leaving their device powered on while docked), and the 20 hour countdown begins.

Now, I don't know how many 'clean' Commanders a player can murder in one night (or over a weekend) - probably quite a number - but it seems to me this notoriety feature isn't that well balanced.

Let's say a player kills 20 players for no reason. In reality, they should have to wait 40 hours to have a notoriety of 0, but for whatever reason it's apparently been capped at 20 hours (max 10 notoriety).

I suggest that notoriety increase is connected to the amount of people murdered - with no cap. If you kill 20 players, expect a wait time of at least 2 hours for each player (regardless of number) before your notoriety is set to zero.

I'd love to hear the justification in limiting the number to 10 - meaning that any murder committed after you've hit that number becomes irrelevant (apart from the added increase in bounty, and possibly rebuy costs).

As for being able to simply be sat docked at a station, running down the clock while asleep, or at work/school, I'm not sure what the solution to this could or should be. Perhaps increasing the time it takes for notoriety to decay should be bumped up - 4 hours of in-game play to reduce notoriety by 1.


EDIT: I now think notoriety could still be displayed at a maximum of 10, but the time it takes for notoriety to reduce from 10 should be dependent on the number of clean commander kills.
1 clean commander murder = displayed notoriety of 1 & 2 hour cool-down to 0 notoriety.
10 clean commander murders = displayed notoriety of 10 & 20 hours cool-down to 0 notoriety.
Any further murders of clean commanders beyond 10 and notoriety can still display as 10, but the amount of murders is added to the total cool-down time a player must wait to reach 0 notoriety.
e.g. 40 clean commander murders = displayed notoriety of 10 but now an 80 hour cool-down to 0 notoriety (the player should be able to find a breakdown of notoriety, murders and cool-down times, somewhere - perhaps somewhere under 'Status' or under 'Bounties').
 
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The game does not make a distinction between killing NPC police and actual humans. I am a hopeless White Knight yet I regularly acquire notoriety due to BGS work murdering NPC police, which I actually find enjoyable now and then. It's fun to see how many NPC security I can kill before my shield generator is rendered completely useless by the ATR which always eventually arrives to spoil my little party.

It would be better to lobby for a "smarter" C&P system, if that is possible or viable.

o7
 
The game does not make a distinction between killing NPC police and actual humans. I am a hopeless White Knight yet I regularly acquire notoriety due to BGS work murdering NPC police, which I actually find enjoyable now and then. It's fun to see how many NPC security I can kill before my shield generator is rendered completely useless by the ATR which always eventually arrives to spoil my little party.

It would be better to lobby for a "smarter" C&P system, if that is possible or viable.

o7
Good point.

The game probably should differentiate between human and NPC players - a reduced time for decay for NPC kills, and a higher rate of decay for killing a 'clean' human player.
 
We need more ways for players to be C and P. I don't know about you all, but I'm not here for the game to play it for me!

For example, help bounty hunters and lawfuls more effectively track outlaws in game. This can be done via the bounty boards, onboard ship computers, and other creative, lore friendly solutions.

The community is full of great ideas. Would be wise to tap into that.
 
I am a hopeless White Knight yet I regularly acquire notoriety due to BGS work murdering NPC police, which I actually find enjoyable now and then. It's fun to see how many NPC security I can kill before my shield generator is rendered completely useless by the ATR which always eventually arrives to spoil my little party.
Your CMDR is a deranged sociopath with delusions that they are more real than their victims.

The game probably should differentiate between human and NPC players - a reduced time for decay for NPC kills, and a higher rate of decay for killing a 'clean' human player.
No, it shouldn't.

Pilots Federation members already get a slew of incredible, and largely inexplicable, advantages.
 
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We need more ways for players to be C and P. I don't know about you all, but I'm not here for the game to play it for me!

For example, help bounty hunters and lawfuls more effectively track outlaws in game. This can be done via the bounty boards, onboard ship computers, and other creative, lore friendly solutions.

The community is full of great ideas. Would be wise to tap into that.
Certainly a a good idea and long over due.
 
Your CMDR is a deranged sociopath with delusions that they are more real than their victims.



No, it shouldn't.

Pilots Federation members already get a slew of incredible, and largely inexplicable, advantages already.
Well, I'm thinking of players who play in OPEN and face the relentless threat of griefers and gankers - those that loiter about Engineer bases waiting for what they hope to be an easy kill. NPC doesn't usually engage in that type of activity... Still, if SOLO players want to wait as long as OPEN players for notoriety to decay for killing NPC 'clean' commanders, so be it.
 
For notoriety decaying while sitting at a station, I would suggest something along the lines of allowing notoriety to decay while docked but ONLY for the first hour or half hour.

Players that are not trying to game the system (i.e. just docking so that they can buy/sell cargo, collect combat bonds or bounty vouchers, etc...) are not affected since they are unlikely to remain docked for more than 10-15 minutes, while players that are intentionally trying to avoid the consequences of their actions would need to actually come back to their computer every so often to keep the clock running.

Of course, there are other ways that a player could avoid this new restriction to AFK away their notoriety, such as supercruising away from a system in a random direction or droping out of supercruise in a random location and going AFK. The latter of these would probably be counterable by checking for control inputs and stopping notoriety decay if there have not been any inputs for ~30 minutes. Of course, the ~30 minute limit wouldn't work for the first AFK method, as there is legitimate 'gameplay' in supercruise where you do not need to have any control inputs for 1-2 hours (i.e. Hutton Orbital).

Essentially, I figure there should be 3 restrictions to notoriety decay depending on the circumstances the player is in:
  • If docked, notoriety continues to decay for 30 minutes at which point notoriety ceases to decay until the player undocks
  • If undocked in real space, notoriety will continue to decay for 30 minutes after the last control input
  • If in supercruise, notoriety will continue to decay for 2 hours after the last control input
As far as I can tell, the only way to avoid these restrictions would be to run an automated program (i.e. a bot) to trick the game into thinking that you are not AFK. Note that running such a program is against the EULA and can result in a ban.
 
Well, I'm thinking of players who play in OPEN and face the relentless threat of griefers and gankers - those that loiter about Engineer bases waiting for what they hope to be an easy kill. NPC doesn't usually engage in that type of activity... Still, if SOLO players want to wait as long as OPEN players for notoriety to decay for killing NPC 'clean' commanders, so be it.
The mode system makes it a little tricky, as we all know. I don't think making fundamental changes to that system would be wise though.

Perhaps the tracking is available regardless of whether an outlaw is in their wanted ship or not. I know getting caught out can be quite chagrin inducing but also fun for all involved. And heck, if you're an outlaw that jumps to Solo or PG when the fire gets to hot what is wrong with you anyway?

Plus, I think vigilantism should be encouraged in a game like Elite. Plenty of lawfuls already do it and probably have some things to say about that.
 
For notoriety decaying while sitting at a station, I would suggest something along the lines of allowing notoriety to decay while docked but ONLY for the first hour or half hour.

Players that are not trying to game the system (i.e. just docking so that they can buy/sell cargo, collect combat bonds or bounty vouchers, etc...) are not affected since they are unlikely to remain docked for more than 10-15 minutes, while players that are intentionally trying to avoid the consequences of their actions would need to actually come back to their computer every so often to keep the clock running.

Of course, there are other ways that a player could avoid this new restriction to AFK away their notoriety, such as supercruising away from a system in a random direction or droping out of supercruise in a random location and going AFK. The latter of these would probably be counterable by checking for control inputs and stopping notoriety decay if there have not been any inputs for ~30 minutes. Of course, the ~30 minute limit wouldn't work for the first AFK method, as there is legitimate 'gameplay' in supercruise where you do not need to have any control inputs for 1-2 hours (i.e. Hutton Orbital).

Essentially, I figure there should be 3 restrictions to notoriety decay depending on the circumstances the player is in:
  • If docked, notoriety continues to decay for 30 minutes at which point notoriety ceases to decay until the player undocks
  • If undocked in real space, notoriety will continue to decay for 30 minutes after the last control input
  • If in supercruise, notoriety will continue to decay for 2 hours after the last control input
As far as I can tell, the only way to avoid these restrictions would be to run an automated program (i.e. a bot) to trick the game into thinking that you are not AFK. Note that running such a program is against the EULA and can result in a ban.
Some great suggestions there as to how to overcome the problem of people waiting out their punishment by leaving the device on overnight/throughout the day simply by being docked (legitimate 'gameplay' apparently. I've often wondered why I see ships (human players) sat for hours in the dock not moving - I guess I know why now...
 
I'm against anything that limits how people can play the game, regardless of chosen proffesion, however things like an effective bounty hunting system and tools that allow players to track player based criminal activity (In game, not yet another plugin), would be VERY welcome additions.

I don't think giving NPC's or the C&P system any more sway over cmdrs is a good idea however. It's difficult enough for both sides what with the fines sending you to jail and what not. But to make "greifers" (LOL) the content for other players is the the best way to go. That way there is thought out, more meaningful PvP and clean players actually have something to aspire to as bounty hunters. I'm sure there are plenty who are sick of the mindless NPC's who are thick as pig excrement in lew of a greater challenge.

That way the PvP playstyle is reinforced AND it has the added benifit of making space more dangerous for those of us who like murder AND makes life better for the players that would have our heads. Much more effective than the current system where players are forced to look in ultra specific locations for player bounties and it would go a long way to reinforce the gameplay between lawfuls and unlawfulls.

That being said if noteriety did go up to twenty, and should a player driven bountyboard be installed then anything over ten can be the "Ok you're on the list now, no more half aked AI, your ship has been logged in the "Galactic Database" where players can track your location and to a limite degree your current activity thus opening up a "them vs us" system where anyone guilty of player murders then has a suitible response. No gimmicky AI, just real players looking to enact thier revenge or to earn thier paycheck.
 
Set the cap at 20 and make it so that you can't lose it while docked.

Then make it so that you can clean minor bounties off your ship at low notoriety levels. Something like 20k - notoriety*10k. So if you have a notoriety of 1 you can still clean up to 19k of bounties. Anything more though and you have to wait. This would make it so that if you gained a stupid minor bounty for a stupid reason (like loitering on accident) and you have a few notoriety points you don't have to wait hours before you can dock again, you can just turn yourself in or clean your ship.
 
The mode system makes it a little tricky, as we all know. I don't think making fundamental changes to that system would be wise though.

Perhaps the tracking is available regardless of whether an outlaw is in their wanted ship or not. I know getting caught out can be quite chagrin inducing but also fun for all involved. And heck, if you're an outlaw that jumps to Solo or PG when the fire gets to hot what is wrong with you anyway?

Plus, I think vigilantism should be encouraged in a game like Elite. Plenty of lawfuls already do it and probably have some things to say about that.
Actually, thinking about it, I think the solution to 'mode switching' would be to bar a player who committed a crime against a human player in OPEN from being able to play in any other mode except OPEN until their notoriety has been set to 0.

Obviously, if you commit crimes against NPC only characters, you can switch modes all you please. Once you murder a clean Commander in OPEN, you are stuck in OPEN until you're at ZERO.
 
If such a change was made... notoriety really needs to be changed to be superpower specific i.e empire, fed, alliance, Interpol

There's a bug right now where bounties are cross jurisdictional for the purposes of determining if you should get a superpower bounty or not. That is... it can take several hundred thousand credits in bounties before you get a superpower bounty in, say, federal space, but so much as sneeze in imperial space after that point and you'll get an imperial superpoewer bounty too.

I would happily run around committing crime and running the risks gaining notoriety in one jurisdiction, if it didn't mean when i sneezed in my clean jurisdiction, i suffered the same consequence.

FE2 used to separate the jurisdictions... being marked as a fugitive in one superpower had no impact on your circumstances in other jurisdictions.
 
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Actually, thinking about it, I think the solution to 'mode switching' would be to bar a player who committed a crime against a human player in OPEN from being able to play in any other mode except OPEN until their notoriety has been set to 0.

Obviously, if you commit crimes against NPC only characters, you can switch modes all you please. Once you murder a clean Commander in OPEN, you are stuck in OPEN until you're at ZERO.
I don't agree with treating players and NPCs differently in regards to notoriety, especially not with the modes.

As far as the game is concerned crimes against NPCs are more "bad" than attacks against players because crimes against NPCs can drive the BGS (and the goals and aspirations of countless player groups). Killing a player has no effect on that unless they had missions to fail or data/bonds/cargo/whatever to lose. At best, they are rare targets of opportunity in those cases. Player killing simply upsets people more for reasons I won't get into now.

Besides, the scaling of bounties based on ship and engineering disparity should already satisfy our need to punish player crime over NPC crime.

Of course, things like the mining boom have thrown that balancing totally out the window.

Ultimate point is, balance one thing and break another. :)
 
I don't agree with treating players and NPCs differently in regards to notoriety, especially not with the modes.

As far as the game is concerned crimes against NPCs are more "bad" than attacks against players because crimes against NPCs can drive the BGS (and the goals and aspirations of countless player groups).
Coincidentally, the significant imbalance of extant positive states vs the virtually non existent negative states demonstrates, as far as NPC crime goes, there is a lack of opportunity or incentive to commit crime and cause negative state effects.

In other words... the weighting is currently too heavy towards punishment, and not crime (as an activity), so the consequences of crime from that angle actually need to be lightened (such as my comment above). But that's getting a little off topic.
 
I don't agree with treating players and NPCs differently in regards to notoriety, especially not with the modes.

As far as the game is concerned crimes against NPCs are more "bad" than attacks against players because crimes against NPCs can drive the BGS (and the goals and aspirations of countless player groups). Killing a player has no effect on that unless they had missions to fail or data/bonds/cargo/whatever to lose. At best, they are rare targets of opportunity in those cases. Player killing simply upsets people more for reasons I won't get into now.

Besides, the scaling of bounties based on ship and engineering disparity should already satisfy our need to punish player crime over NPC crime.

Of course, things like the mining boom have thrown that balancing totally out the window.

Ultimate point is, balance one thing and break another. :)
I take your point. However, on there clearly is a difference between the murder of NPC and the murder of a human player in-game. This difference extends beyond the BGS, or other features, and impacts player willingness to test multiplayer OPEN due to the fact that there are human players actively looking for other human players to destroy their ships. NPCs don't do this - perhaps in some Anarchy systems they might.

A human player will attack another in any system - regardless of security state - in an attempt to destroy the other player (no motive needed, besides the apparent enjoyment they gain from doing so), NPCs don't. Therefore, they should be treated differently.

I've never jumped into a system and found an NPC camped behing the Nav Beacon waiting to interdict the next human player jumping in. And I've never encountered an NPC trying to kill me in a system that should be fairly safe just for attempting to visit an engineer - or when leaving the engineer base. Thus, human and NPC is different, and should be treated differently. Destroying an NPC has lesser consequences to others playing the game - whereas, the rebuy cost of the human victim (and any cargo lost) is certainly felt as a greater loss to them - and obviously most would have more sympathy for the destruction of a fellow human player's ship.

The notoriety concessions, etc., was mainly for those who play SOLO. Why should the SOLO player have to face more severe crime and punishment when the purpose behind it is to try and limit the behaviour of a few notorious gankers and griefers who are not engaged in piracy, but rather seeking to destroy others for the fun of it?

I also now believe that PvP crime against other players should restrict that player (the guilty party) to OPEN - especially if your idea posted earlier were ever implemented.
 
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