ANNOUNCEMENT April Update - Coming 23 April 2019

Crime and punishment isn't the problem, ATR didn't change anything in terms of ganking - and indeed it wasn't even really intended to, it was a BGS balancing tool to stop cop massacre. As the game balance currently stands unless you go full Minority Report and make punishment pre-emptive there will always be seal clubbing. You're trying to fix the wrong part of the game, the issue is the massive irretrievable power differential between casually fit ship and minmaxed ships, and the practical impossibility of balancing TTK for all players in a system where combat ships can have 2000% + more health and 100% + more damage output than a new, unmodded casual build.
I think that's true about ATR but I don't agree that the imbalance with combat ships is the whole issue. Even in the new starter areas I expect that seal clubbers will do their stupidity successfully in stock Sidewinders. An experienced player will always be "imbalanced" against someone who is still learning the controls.

The only way of stopping this is really ferocious C&P. A god-mode laser blast reaching across a system from the nearest station causing instant destruction as soon as notoriety is gained, or something similar.

I think that's the only thing that will work; I'm not quite sure that it's desirable.
 
as soon as notoriety is gained
Even in this instance, the seal would already have been clubbed and gankers could feasibly continue doing this with account resets in the starter areas. But yeah, you're right new, inexperienced players will always be at risk from more skilled players. I think this is impossible to avoid while still having a dynamic multiplayer space. If the game was balanced correctly and players were shown more clearly how to make use of the defensive tools available to them instagibbing would be less prevalent, and the situation would be considerably less ridiculous than it currently is for everyone involved.
 
Even in this instance, the seal would already have been clubbed and gankers could feasibly continue doing this with account resets in the starter areas. But yeah, you're right new, inexperienced players will always be at risk from more skilled players. I think this is impossible to avoid while still having a dynamic multiplayer space. If the game was balanced correctly and players were shown more clearly how to make use of the defensive tools available to them instagibbing would be less prevalent, and the situation would be considerably less ridiculous than it currently is for everyone involved.
You need no punishment if there is no crime. Just make player's ships immune to another player's ship fire\ram damage in that "noob zone", implementing some kind of PVE-only area by the game mechanics. No need in permit locks and complex solutions.
And now let's start "muh imurshin" rant. ;)

PS: Similar solution implemented and works perfectly in SWTOR, for example. You cannot kill another human player in the starting areas.
 
I'm not really getting this complaint though. At the moment we have free for all seal clubbing, for any ganker who fancies it. With restricted start systems the seal clubbing will still exist but will be much less, as Murder Harry and The Narcissists (great band) can continue using new accounts.

So ... it's better, surely.
Better?

So if someone is beating you about the head and shoulders and you cry out for something better and the beating stops on your shoulders.... Is that better? I mean your shoulders would surely feel better, right?

Just saying.

And seriously, Neil makes a great point: What is stopping an experienced Ganker/Griefer/etc. from just buying/starting a new account to gain access to a "target rich environment"? The idea of a beginner zone is a good idea. I am just wondering if FD has a plan to address this.
 
And seriously, Neil makes a great point: What is stopping an experienced Ganker/Griefer/etc. from just buying/starting a new account to gain access to a "target rich environment"? The idea of a beginner zone is a good idea. I am just wondering if FD has a plan to address this.
As we already know, nothing. The only restriction is that everyone is going to be in either eagles, haulers or sidewinders. It does give the newbies a better chance as the seal clubbers have been in FDLs and Corvettes before. Would be nice is some well know gankers get owned by new players in a sidewinder.
 
Like these new updates, now I only need a multi star jump computer and the repetitive task of star jumping will be gone, and I can concentrate on actually enjoying the game.
 
As we already know, nothing. The only restriction is that everyone is going to be in either eagles, haulers or sidewinders. It does give the newbies a better chance as the seal clubbers have been in FDLs and Corvettes before. Would be nice is some well know gankers get owned by new players in a sidewinder.
Well, if I'm in the cluster of systems around Eravate in my little runabout and I see a giant murderwedge hanging around then I'm going to be wary of them, but I might not pay all that much attention to what another sidey is doing. I've seen people do horrible things with pvpwinders to take advantage of people that didn't see them as a threat...
 

StefanOS

Volunteer Moderator
Honestly combat got so out of control with optional and military modules that I gave up on pvp
For me the balance was lost when FD allowed the players to stack SHIELD CELL BANKS and SHIELD BOOSTERS (and some weapons who do get too strong with engineering).
Every ship should be able to carry ONLY 1 SCB and 1 SB. And than special fighters could have additional some military modules...
Generally the difference of unengineered and engineered ships did get too big.
 
For me the balance was lost when FD allowed the players to stack SHIELD CELL BANKS and SHIELD BOOSTERS
yeah, hitpoint inflation was a thing form the start, it came steadily even long before engineers. engineers just put it so through the roof that all those special effects became a necessity, so now you need to grind a master degree in gadgetonomics. 'yeah, coooool', but it's more of a thing for young ...
 
Like these new updates, now I only need a multi star jump computer and the repetitive task of star jumping will be gone, and I can concentrate on actually enjoying the game.

I was about to write something as shallow as "yeah, soon we will ask for the game to play itself!"

...

Then i stopped for a moment and thought it over.

Despite the fact that exploring is the sole purpose for "my journey", i still think not everyone should be bothered with the burden of continous jumping.
I'm overwhelmed and in need of self motivating during my present time in DW2, for example.
 
The only way of stopping this is really ferocious C&P.
No level of (in game) punishment is going to stop certain people from killing other players for the sake of ruining their fun. There cannot be an immersion-friendly, in-universe crime and punishment system that works because the players it's targeting are not constrained by the same rules. Players are immortal, can largely ignore fines and bounties and at the end of the day can always reset their save or buy a second account. On top of all that, you can't even really attempt to make crime and punishment too harsh because piracy is a valid player career path and even if you could make a crime and punishment system that could distinguish between piracy and murder for lols, that in itself would be immersion breaking - while there are sometimes mitigating circumstances in murder trials, I don't think "I had to commit the murder to carry out a lesser crime" is one of them.

I have absolutely no idea how big an issue random murders are for player retention (I'd imagine it puts at least some people off :V) but really the only way that's ever getting fixed is opt-in PvP and I don't think that'll fly any time soon, if ever.
 
You know what... going to risk it and say... I tend to think the specific problem being discussed here, which is newbie ganking, is massively overstated. Most of the new players coming through our group barely meet anyone, let alone have content emerge at them in any shape or form. A large number of new players play in solo by default until they feel confident anyway, which is pretty much what solo mode is for. The ganking that gets the most press and produces the most salt is when overconfident and underprepared mid-tier players get shot down at CGs in poorly equipped Condas they only recently bought, which isn't really the same thing and is brought about largely by stubbornness on the part of players and frankly shoddy game balancing on the part of Fdev.

I am aware that proper seal clubbing of infant sidewinders does exist, but it is so tedious even for the most low-ambition gankers it doesn't happen as much as you might think. However... given the novelty of the proposed 'soft-play area' you can bet that second account holders will fill it with death and turmoil within moments of it going live, if only to prove that they can. Fdev should consider this first, then move on to narrowing the power discrepancies that allow the mid-tier instagibbing to happen.

killing other players for the sake of ruining their fun.
Also tbqh this is pretty emotive language. I thought we were over the "it's IRL sadism!" arguments in TYOOL 2019. Game is about spaceships; the spaceships have guns strapped to them; the guns go pew; game is multiplayer... do the maths. What did anyone actually think was going to happen? It's Dark Souls in space, play in hollow mode if you don't want the risk, or if you're an advanced player take steps to prepare your defences/pre-empt attacks: death remains purely opt-in 99% of the time, even in Open play, for anyone who knows what they're doing and actively keeps an eye on their surroundings.
 
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Also tbqh this is pretty emotive language.
It's entirely factual language, unless you think there's some other (believable) reason to hang around the starter systems blowing up new players?
What did anyone actually think was going to happen?
It was entirely predictable that some players would enjoy killing other players for the sake of ruining their fun - I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that's happened in almost every multiplayer game where it was possible to do so. That has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether or not it's a problem though.
It's Dark Souls in space
Lol, it absolutely is no such thing.
 
On top of all that, you can't even really attempt to make crime and punishment too harsh because piracy is a valid player career path [...]
While piracy IS a valid career, every bit as valid as Assassin*, these are still illegal activities in terms of the game’s limited judicial system. There is no real applicable penalty that could be applied to make the punishment fit the crime.

*As a career option yes, one can sell one’s service as a PvP Assassin, hunting people down and blowing them up for no reason other than “someone paid me to do it.” As the game rules do allow for this, so long as one is not using this as an excuse for harassing another player.

Once again though, there really is no punishment that would suit the crime - the maximum sentence is being blown up, and if your pockets are deep enough, even this is merely a raised spot the highway of life.
 
Generally speaking, I really like the announced updates.
My favorite ship is the DBS, and the addition of two OI slots will make it even more fun to fly.
While some might have preferred making auto-dock and SC-assist hardwired additions, and not modules, I like the module approach; this will incentivize new players to improve their skills in order to swap them out for other modules down the road.
I favor the idea of a restricted beginner system as well. When you are teaching your kid to drive, you start in an empty parking lot, not the demolition derby.
 
I was about to write something as shallow as "yeah, soon we will ask for the game to play itself!"

...

Then i stopped for a moment and thought it over.

Despite the fact that exploring is the sole purpose for "my journey", i still think not everyone should be bothered with the burden of continous jumping.
I'm overwhelmed and in need of self motivating during my present time in DW2, for example.
We all play the game in a different way, the whole balancing should so no one get an advantage by using different tools in the game.

However it should not be so only people who can do the same repetitive task are the only ones who can advance in the game. Even FDEV has realized that docking and undocking, alignment is not for every one, and that is also why we have assist off/on. It should be a choice, not something you force on the player, I’m sure those who can speed dock/undock still can do it faster, just as I’m sure those who can use the planets to sling shot into the station can do it faster, and then there are people who just like to tool around on auto cruise and enjoy roll playing a space trucker, trucking around. The game should be for both type of players.
 
It's entirely factual language, unless you think there's some other (believable) reason to hang around the starter systems blowing up new players?

It was entirely predictable that some players would enjoy killing other players for the sake of ruining their fun - I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that's happened in almost every multiplayer game where it was possible to do so. That has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on whether or not it's a problem though.

Lol, it absolutely is no such thing.
On basic principle I fully agree with your post, but the idea that ganking is simply the result of a sadistic drive is false, a lot of the time people are just trying to find scraps of adrenaline in what is essentially a fairly incredibly dry multiplayer experience. There may be a lot of selfishness at times, but actively sadistic isn't accurate in a lot of cases. At CGs generally people are just looking for some kind of interaction, prodding other players and trying to get them to fight back... sometimes they do and it's fun, sometimes they wake out, which is fine, sometimes they log off, which is pathetic. What's disappointing is that the open environment doesn't provide any groundwork, context or structure for these interactions so you just get a lot of "idle hands". The game has no meaningful way to interact with other people that doesn't involve shooting them, but also has no structure or incentives for doing so.

When I quoted your text it was tunnel-vision on that single sentence which seemed to encompass all aggressive player actions, which is what I disagree with... clearly some people specifically want to ruin someone's day, and this would include noobwinder killers - but most of the time there is no malice behind in-game aggression, it's just poking stuff with literally the only stick Fdev offers us.

Also the instancing system being as weak as it is, Elite's multiplayer has a lot more in common with Dark Souls than with any true MMO.
 
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