200 credits bounty, 250M credits punishment

Get out of here with that.

We're insisting the pilot that alt tabbed out of the game when something was happening he didn't understand instead of maybe not doing that and paying attention to what was going on somehow has something to learn.

How dare we, indeed! Or whatever.
I'm actually saying that had the player not made the foolish move to carry around that 250M, this would have been a 'laugh it off' moment that they learned from. Its severity is only made evident because of their poor judgement in carrying cash.
 
I understood the difference between bounties and fines on day one. The clue is in the name.
You're an extremely active member of this forum and I have no doubt whatsoever that you understood the difference on Day Zero. Like others here, I also followed the development of the C&P changes closely so by the time the update rolled out I knew how it all worked. Nonetheless I have seen thread after thread from newcomer and veteran alike where fines and bounties are repeatedly conflated, confused, or otherwise misunderstood, and the in-game communication about this stuff and its consequences is just terrible to the point of being counterproductive. If most players think the two things are the same, if they don't know what to expect will happen to them when they go to a station where they're wanted vs merely fined, if they don't know how and where to pay their fines vs bribe away their bounties vs "turn themselves in", etc; then the whole thing doesn't work.

I think "under the hood" most of the mechanisms are logical once you know them (although "Hot Modules" is basically a broken mechanic in its current state), but they are presented in-game very poorly and in some cases incorrectly. There are some easy things Frontier could have done and still should do if they want to make this game approachable without a wiki tab open at all times.
 
The issue is carting around 250M in data here. If you were ganked on your way back in or something, I would be totally sympathetic (others might not, but losing a lot of progress for what's really no good reason is always sad).
The issue is not carting 250M worth of data, or 1 billion, or however much. The fact that that exploration data was lost adds insult to injury but shouldn't mislead from the point I am making: this particular game mechanic is badly designed. If it were all about the lost exploration data, I would have complained about it being lost upon ship destruction (in general), which I never did. I am OK with exploration data being lost upon death, I am okay with carrying a lot of it being a risk and I think it adds to the thrill of the game. No issue there.
The issue is that a stupid, poorly explained, badly designed, confusing game mechanic caused it. Frankly if I were ganked on my way back I would have been at first upset, then shrugged it off and called it "part of a dangerous galaxy", but I was aware of that danger and careful as to avoid it as much as possible.
The issue is being destruyed upon activation of a game mechanic that shouldn't work the way it does, money or no money involved.

I'm sorry, but the player wouldn't care so much if they hadn't lost all their money.
I haven't lost all my money. As a matter of fact, I lost an amount I hadn't hoped I could have on my way back. EDDiscovery estimated all my exploration data to be worth around 169M credits, and i came to the bubble, cashed in around 250M and I still had around 250M more worth of data on me. Shortly put: I lost my bonuses.

The root cause of losing the money is not having cashed it in.
The root cause is not losing the money. It was money I didn't have yet. The root cause is stumbling upon something that's badly designed and negatively affects players in the game.

C&P is dumb, but tolerable if you don't, y'know, carry all your money in a fashion that makes it losable. If the OP hadn't died to this dumb system, and STILL hadn't paid their exploration data in, then they'd have lost the money some other way and complained then.
You're assuming too much. See above. I was perfectly aware of the risk involved (of losing that data).

My proposal to fix the issue iss that it is made blatantly clear you're wanted at a station by way of making it appear somehow hostile on your radar prior to approach.
And that would have been more than enough to help me avoid what happened. Just as a friendly station appears green on your target hologram, a (possibly) hostile one would appear red.

If most players think the two things are the same, if they don't know what to expect will happen to them when they go to a station where they're wanted vs merely fined, if they don't know how and where to pay their fines vs bribe away their bounties vs "turn themselves in", etc; then the whole thing doesn't work.
Right on point, that is exactly what the root cause is, the thing I am complaining about. I know lots of players tend to blame the newbie, because they got used to broken things and know how to fix them, and others saw the loss of exploration data as the real problem (which was not, it was merely "the cherry on the top").

The alt-tabbing is the best part of this story.
OK, since this seems to be another point onto which many participants to the conversation are stumbling, let me explain how I do alt-tabbing.
My monitor is a 34" Samsung with 3440x1440 resolution. I run the game in borderless windowed mode. When I alt-tab to the browser, it only partially covers the game window. It covers the middle of the game interface only, allowing me to still see the Info panel on the top right and the whole UI at the bottom (with speed, distance to targeted object, etc). Alt-tabbing back takes a fraction of a second. I was quick enough to react, but not quick enough to avoid what happened because it happened in seconds. Therefore, alt-tabbing or not alt-tabbing would not have made any significant difference to the outcome. Furthermore, I alt-tabbed to look up what "Anonymous access" meant, so in a way you could say the game itself made me do it because it poorly explained (rather, didn't explain at all) what was happening and what was about to happen.

Also, about the definition of "bounty". The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines bounty as "a payment for the capture of or assistance in the capture of an outlaw". The game defines bounty as "kill him". The game manual says:
Having an active bounty means that you will be “wanted” in any jurisdiction controlled by that faction. Ships that perform a basic scan will learn of this criminal status and be allowed to attack you with impunity
. According to Merriam-Webster, "impunity" is defined as "exemption or freedom from punishment, harm, or loss". Furthermore the manual only talks about other ships attacking you, never mentions stations doing so.
 
The issue is that a stupid, poorly explained, badly designed, confusing game mechanic caused it. Frankly if I were ganked on my way back I would have been at first upset, then shrugged it off and called it "part of a dangerous galaxy", but I was aware of that danger and careful as to avoid it as much as possible.
The issue is being destruyed upon activation of a game mechanic that shouldn't work the way it does, money or no money involved.
The game doesn't tell you anywhere that you can get ganked, interdicted, followed by pirates etc. It also doesn't tell you that you can explode when you crash into an asteroid.
This is fine for you, but it's unacceptable that the game doesn't tell you that a bounty may lead to ship destruction upon detection although it's in the manual and probably the codex?
There are lots of issues with the C&P system, some stuff doesn't make sense or needs improvement, maybe it could be better explained but that's not what you are asking for. You just claim that the mechanic itself is bad, based on an edge case that almost never happens to anyone else. Your problem is that you didn't understand how the game works (although you are a long time veteran playing since 2014 and that part of C&P never changed). Elite can be quite complex, if you want to play a game that holds your hand, there are plenty. It's not Elite though and it probably never will be.
 
I am a returning player... and I have encountered the most ridiculous game mechanic ever seen in any game so far.
A couple days ago, upon attempting a planetary scan mission, I accidentally clicked instead of right-clicking and I launched a single SRV shot on a building from the outpost I was sent to. The automated defenses started shooting me, so I tailed outta there and abandoned the mission. I saw a fine/bounty of 200 credits on my head so i figured I would go to some station and pay it.
Yesterday I loggerd in again, attempted to finish a pending data delivery mission that I had taken earlier so I headed to the destination station. Upon arriving, I requested automated docking, which was granted, and an info message showed up in red: „Anonymous access”. Wondering that that meant, I alt-tabbed (I have Elite Dangerous in borderless windowed mode) and googled for that. While that happened, in the space of 30 seconds, my ship entered the station, being in the process of docking and suddenly was shot from all sides, me alt-tabbing back just in time to get the death pop-up message.

I lost 23 Hutton Mugs that I had in my cargo hold (no, I am not going to go get them again. EVER.), the ship itself (easily replaced through insurance), 3 Modular Terminals (and we all know how difficult it is to gather 25 for Marco Qwent)... and 250M worth of exploration data from my previous trip to Eta Carinae, Statue of Liberty and their surroundings.

That's a bit harsh, isn't it? /sarcasm

Seriously, it's like walking on the street, pulling out your phone and a piece of paper falls to the ground unnoticed. You keep walking and upon entering any public building you are beheaded and all your wealth destroyed.

I lost 5 or 6 days of exploration, hundreds of solar systems worth, and I am a bit upset. So what gives? Is this something that would remain in the game, unchanged? It makes no sense to inflict such a disproportionate punishment for such a small mistake, when there are countless methods to properly punish a mistake according to its gravity.
Yeah, that sounds about right. Messed up, isn't it? Something to do with punishing gankers, a playstyle that some people don't approve of. "Play my way or GTFO".
 
The game doesn't tell you anywhere that you can get ganked, interdicted, followed by pirates etc.
But it does. It actually goes out of the way to warn you when a system is in Anarchy status. When you initiate a jump to another system, there is the red notification on the FSD charge UI.
Whenever you take on a mission, no mater how inane, it carefully tells you "ships may be sent against you" or that you may encounter hostiles in this and that area. It carefully tells you pirates are roaming around. It assigns threat levels to FSS signals. It carefully marks conflict zones and warns you you are entering one. And these are probably just some of the innumerable warnings that are there, they are just the ones I remember off the top of my head.

It also doesn't tell you that you can explode when you crash into an asteroid.
Can you really pretend you can't differentiate between "hitting an asteroid at high speed can kill you" and "docking at a station which welcomed you and accepted your request can kill you"? Are you really saying they are the same thing?

You just claim that the mechanic itself is bad, based on an edge case that almost never happens to anyone else.
Citation needed. Most players don't come to forums (valid for any game) so it might be happening to lots of people, and we would be none the wiser.

Your problem is that you didn't understand how the game works (although you are a long time veteran playing since 2014 and that part of C&P never changed).
I played for a week or two back then, after which I left the game alone and came back three weeks ago. I wouldn't call myself a veteran by any means.

Elite can be quite complex, if you want to play a game that holds your hand, there are plenty. It's not Elite though and it probably never will be.
It is not about hand holding. It is about consistency. The game, on one hand, throws plenty of warnings at you for no reason (see above), then, when you really should be warned, it lulls you into a false sense of security ("welcome to the station, commander... WE KILL YOU").
I have played very complex games, I survived in EVE Online for years (for example) and trickery, backstabbing and betrayal abound there, but those always come from people, never from the game itself.

Yeah, that sounds about right. Messed up, isn't it? Something to do with punishing gankers, a playstyle that some people don't approve of. "Play my way or GTFO".
Reading comprehension issues much?
 
OP, it seems to me you that are not experienced player.
First the most important thing is when you are wanted/hostile in current system it shows in the bottom right corner.
Then if you try to dock in such circumstances you have to do it very fast so that no police is able to scann you.
 
Yeah, that sounds about right. Messed up, isn't it? Something to do with punishing gankers, a playstyle that some people don't approve of. "Play my way or GTFO".
This is completely unrelated to punishing gankers. OP made a simple mistake that would've happened the exact same way back in 2014.

But it does. It actually goes out of the way to warn you when a system is in Anarchy status. When you initiate a jump to another system, there is the red notification on the FSD charge UI.
Whenever you take on a mission, no mater how inane, it carefully tells you "ships may be sent against you" or that you may encounter hostiles in this and that area. It carefully tells you pirates are roaming around. It assigns threat levels to FSS signals. It carefully marks conflict zones and warns you you are entering one. And these are probably just some of the innumerable warnings that are there, they are just the ones I remember off the top of my head.
It also shows you a big fat wanted sign when you jump to a system. It also shows a big fat wanted sign in the corner of your monitor. Just because you ignore the warnings it doesn't mean they aren't there.
You said you watched a cowboy movie where they said 'wanted dead or alive' and therefore you assumed you couldn't get killed for a bounty. Which doesn't even make sense.



Can you really pretend you can't differentiate between "hitting an asteroid at high speed can kill you" and "docking at a station which welcomed you and accepted your request can kill you"? Are you really saying they are the same thing?
They didn't discover your bounty at that point because the cops didn't scan you yet. Once you understand that bounties may lead to ship destruction, yes, they are pretty much the same thing.


Citation needed. Most players don't come to forums (valid for any game) so it might be happening to lots of people, and we would be none the wiser.
I just guess that most people actually understand what 'wanted' means.



I played for a week or two back then, after which I left the game alone and came back three weeks ago. I wouldn't call myself a veteran by any means.
You own an Orca, you managed to gather 250M credits exploration data, which is more money I earned playing the game for 4 years. You must know a thing or two about the game.


It is not about hand holding. It is about consistency. The game, on one hand, throws plenty of warnings at you for no reason (see above), then, when you really should be warned, it lulls you into a false sense of security ("welcome to the station, commander... WE KILL YOU").
I have played very complex games, I survived in EVE Online for years (for example) and trickery, backstabbing and betrayal abound there, but those always come from people, never from the game itself.
Apart from the big fat wanted sign. When they welcomed you they didn't know you are a criminal.
 
You said you watched a cowboy movie where they said 'wanted dead or alive' and therefore you assumed you couldn't get killed for a bounty. Which doesn't even make sense.
No, I used it as an example. I also provided the dictionary definition. Both are in disagreement with how FDev implemented it in-game.

They didn't discover your bounty at that point because the cops didn't scan you yet. Once you understand that bounties may lead to ship destruction, yes, they are pretty much the same thing.
Understanding the game mechanic doesn't make it better. It only makes it avoidable in the future for me. Not for the next one who encounters this, and not for the one after him, etc. And maybe, just maybe, they would rage quit (not my case but still).

I just guess that most people actually understand what 'wanted' means.
And I guess they don't. Even score.

You own an Orca, you managed to gather 250M credits exploration data, which is more money I earned playing the game for 4 years. You must know a thing or two about the game.
I don't own an Orca. What are you talking about?
Gathering exploration data is probably the easiest thing in the game.
 
No, I used it as an example. I also provided the dictionary definition. Both are in disagreement with how FDev implemented it in-game.
No, not really.


Understanding the game mechanic doesn't make it better. It only makes it avoidable in the future for me. Not for the next one who encounters this, and not for the one after him, etc. And maybe, just maybe, they would rage quit (not my case but still).
Hopefully.


And I guess they don't. Even score.
Fair enough.


I don't own an Orca. What are you talking about?
Gathering exploration data is probably the easiest thing in the game.
Or Dolphin? Anyway, it's not a Sidewinder. Since you claim to be a newcomer I wonder how you know what's the easiest thing in game. Getting 250m credits of exploration data takes quite some time, you almost hit Elite rank with that.
 
Or Dolphin? Anyway, it's not a Sidewinder. Since you claim to be a newcomer I wonder how you know what's the easiest thing in game. Getting 250m credits of exploration data takes quite some time, you almost hit Elite rank with that.
I had around 1.5M credits from way back. I did a few data courier missions, bought a Dolphin (1.8M credits). Did a quick 200LY round trip outside the bubble, came back with 15M credits. That took two days. Outfitted my Dolphin and went out to explore further. Took about three weeks, some with more time allocated, some with less.



Again, exploration is very easy and free of any danger. Not sure why you are clinging to that.
 
Again, exploration is very easy and free of any danger. Not sure why you are clinging to that.
You spent the last 2 days complaining your mistakes cost you ingame money, and when its been cleared its YOUR fault, you keep moaning...

You need to learn to take responsability and let go.
 
You knowingly took many risks with that data - I'm only mentioning the data as per your title.
Running missions with all that data in your back pocket is a massive risk - but you took it
Driving a SRV on a Scan mission is a risk - remember skimmer rain?
Picking up a fine with all that data - ok now the stakes are high - danger danger will Robinson! Warning, Warning!

Then I lose any empathy I had...

"As i'm docking I alt tab out of the game!" Good grief!
 
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