The truth about free updates and frustration (including opinions) - Page 2

Thread: The truth about free updates and frustration (including opinions)

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  1. #21
    Originally Posted by Spanky View Post (Source)
    Seeker, I don't know what's matter with. Looks like someday something very big has hit you. Otherwise i can't understand your point of view. Right from the beginning, Frontier has never promised free updates. That's it. Leave us alone with your comments. I really think, someone should report you and take you from this forum.
    I don't have to agree with seeker and rarely do but you are the definition of the problem. You have insulted people multiple times because they don't agree with you. Maybe you should leave this forum if you think it's ok to insult people.

  2. #22
    Originally Posted by Spanky View Post (Source)
    Seeker, I don't know what's matter with. Looks like someday something very big has hit you. Otherwise i can't understand your point of view. Right from the beginning, Frontier has never promised free updates. That's it. Leave us alone with your comments. I really think, someone should report you and take you from this forum.
    I think you are really now targeting someone who just expresses his feelings. Just like you did with the Expo thread, where actually nobody responds because it's sad. just plain sad.

    Maybe you think because you are a CHC member you are on top of the ladder and maybe that's the reason why you feel you can make these statements

    Instead of asking somone to report him do it yourself as you already know you will be laughed at because he has done nothing wrong.

  3. #23
    Originally Posted by Spanky View Post (Source)
    Seeker, I don't know what's matter with. Looks like someday something very big has hit you. Otherwise i can't understand your point of view. Right from the beginning, Frontier has never promised free updates. That's it. Leave us alone with your comments. I really think, someone should report you and take you from this forum.
    You're unpleasent post has backfired on you. Seeker does have a certain way of posting, which oftenly contains a lot of criticism. But he is being honest, trying to make a point here and clearing things up. I agree with him that people are using the term 'free update' as ammunition against a lot of feedback regarding these updates.

    So instead of reporting Seeker, I've reported you as you are targeting a man because you disagree and you are actively trying to get people to act against Seeker, which I think is (or should be) an absolute no go on this forum. Disagreeing is fine, but focus on what is being said rather than who is saying it.

  4. #24
    Originally Posted by Heurtaux View Post (Source)
    You're unpleasent post has backfired on you. Seeker does have a certain way of posting, which oftenly contains a lot of criticism. But he is being honest, trying to make a point here and clearing things up. I agree with him that people are using the term 'free update' as ammunition against a lot of feedback regarding these updates.

    So instead of reporting Seeker, I've reported you as you are targeting a man because you disagree and you are actively trying to get people to act against Seeker, which I think is (or should be) an absolute no go on this forum. Disagreeing is fine, but focus on what is being said rather than who is saying it.
    Amen

  5. #25

  6. #26
    Thank you guys!

    Passionate posts are one thing but personal attacks are never ok. There's no reason why there shouldn't be a place for everyone on this site as long as we respect each other.
    Ok, looking forward to getting back to have a civilized discussion now.

  7. #27
    Criticism is okay as long as it is meant to help the game and nobody gets insulted. Problem is, that it often gets 'unfriendly', or even insulting/harassing.

    I personalyy am fine with the direction PLanCo goes at the moment. Of course, there are things which could be better or are missing. Sometimes I wonder why an element is implemented and another is not. All I know so far is, that the Devs really like what they are doing and that they love the game. They care about our feedback which we could often see. In example the GoKarts were implemented as well as the log flume ride and the water rafting ride although these were planned to be implemented at a later date. Community wanted to have these rides so they changed plans and of course, we had to wait for other things a little bit longer. I am fine with that. We are all so very passionate about this game to function right, that we express our wishes quite strong. Not all wishes can be admitted at the same time, though. Yes, it would have been better to have the new flatride with an option to change if we have the roof or not. I personally really like this roof but can also understand that others might don't want it. I would love to see a skin with that seperated backroom like we see in Europe quite often. Maybe it will be implemented at a later date. We will see. PATIENCE is the word here.

    What I could see in all livestreeams so far is, that all the devs are really passionate. We can see this in the faces of Sam Denney and Andrew Chapel everytime (hope I spelled their names right). These are great guys and you can see that they want to develop the best rollercoaster themepark game ever. Of course, that takes time.
    Yes, the game was published a bit too early, but as mentioned by others this is a win win situation for all if done right (and as far as I can see it, Frontier does it right. Other companies would have abondened this game long before but people would still purchase their games because some people are utterly stupid). The beta was waaaaay too short to address managing shortcomings. But they address it now and hopefully will in the future.
    Some in the community complain that there is no communication between Frontier and the community. I agree so far, that communication indeed was better somer months ago. But those people (I really don't name names here) seem to not understand that they themselves destroy communication lines. In the early beginnings we could see picnic benches. People complained over and over that we should get them as soon as possible because we could see them in a video which was marketing-wise to show us what 'could be' or what was 'targeted'. Now we finally get them (YEAH) and the same people complain that we should get more etc.
    It seems to me that even when Frontier does something right in the eyes of some people, some part of the community complains even louder because their wishes were adressed by Frontier and they see that this influence of complaining an dmoaning might work. Result is that Frontier stops communicating what they are doing now, what is planned etc.

    It is okay to complain when something doesn't work or if there are bugs. But as we say in Germany: 'The sound makes the music". Please don't be rude. We had even one guy in these forums who asked for one guy to be fired after the Expo because the sound mix wasn't so good. I mean, come on. This is a game we should enjoy and have fun with. Asking for somebody to get fired is ... I can't find words for that. As I remember him being German I have to excuse for the behaviour of some of my countrymen.

    Being passionate and wanting to make this game better is good. But being rude and arguing about every little bit is NOT constructive at all. People complained about Spooky DLC. Once it was out everybody seemed to like it and by the way, yes we got more here as they showed and told us (which wasn't difficult because they didn't show much). But I guess that will be better next time. People learn.

    What I want to say is: we addressed some problems, now it is time to wait. Development takes time. If problems continue to be in the game we tell the developors ONCE (maybe even in a poll, if possible so that the Devs can see better which problem is worst). Opening dozens of threads with the same discussions how bad everything is doesn't help. the only result will be that the devs don't look into the forums anymore or simply don't have the time to develop the game because they have to read all those same threads with the same content (important information will vanish here).

    And to those people (not calling names here) who complain that nobody does understand them - try to understand that the others might understand but you yourself aren't willing to understand the others.
    Some say that everybody is entitled to have their own meaning - YES - so please accept other's opinions as well and don't undermine their meanings with 'fanboy' or 'you are not understanding' etc. Some complain that people complain about their complain. YES, as you yourself said, everybody is entitled to have their own opinion.

    Once upon a time community was nice here, nowadays it is just picking into other people's eyes. Complain once in a constructive way, if nothing changed AFTER a published update, complain ONCE more. Explain it ONCE so devs can easily filter information. Be kind, not rude and respect other people opinions, especially when you ask for other's to respect your opinion. As we all know everybody tends to misread information because of lack of emoticons etc. If we get that to work we all will enjoy a wonderful game

    - - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

    Originally Posted by seeker939 View Post (Source)
    Thank you guys!

    Passionate posts are one thing but personal attacks are never ok. There's no reason why there shouldn't be a place for everyone on this site as long as we respect each other.
    Ok, looking forward to getting back to have a civilized discussion now.
    THIS Great, please ignore some parts of what I just wrote then

  8. #28
    Just let everyone post their opinion no matter if you agree or disagree with it.
    Early Bird.

  9. #29
    Originally Posted by Ramm View Post (Source)
    Just let everyone post their opinion no matter if you agree or disagree with it.
    This is all that really needs to be said on the matter!

    A lot of people on internet forums, social media or whatever seem to feel the need to aggressively attack or defend their own or other peoples opinions. Myself, I read what people have to say then just let it be. People should post up their feedback for the devs to consider, at the end of the day the devs know far more about any of this stuff than we do on the forums. They're intelligent enough to filter through feedback and pick the good from the bad, it's the reason they're the ones making the game, and not a bunch of internet 'experts' on a forum

  10. #30
    JoŽl is offline
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    Originally Posted by Spanky View Post (Source)
    Seeker, I don't know what's matter with. Looks like someday something very big has hit you. Otherwise i can't understand your point of view. Right from the beginning, Frontier has never promised free updates. That's it. Leave us alone with your comments. I really think, someone should report you and take you from this forum.
    Spanky, your feedback and presence on the Planet Coaster forums is greatly appreciated. That being said, we ask everyone to respect opinions of others, even if those opinions differ (greatly) from your own or if you cannot understand their point of view.

    General message:
    Telling people to stop posting and/or telling them to go away from the forums is the opposite of the Forum Rules and Guidelines that we strive for. Please stop your 'back-seat moderating'. Everyone is free to express their own opinion about the game and its development, as long as it is posted in a respectful and constructive way, and without attacking others.

    Thank you.
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  11. #31
    Don't know, if you get all messages behind this forum, but instead of reporting any other here, I have reported my own post by myself, because I've seen, that I go in a wrong direction. I apologize to Seeker for my insults.

    I agree with you about free opinions.

    Coaster Head Club Member, VIP, Early Bird

  12. #32
    This is basically what I've been trying to say for a long time. Whether you like the current model of game development or not, you HAVE to remember that these updates are not really free. We did pay for a game, and we paid for a full game. What was released a year ago was not a full game, and Frontier has played catch up until this point basically. Which is why I get slightly annoyed when even Frontier is acting as if they're doing us a favor by releasing these updates "for free" - something that was heavily emphasized during the expo. The reality is that without these updates the game would not be nearly as popular anymore. And the bad part is that if they would've listened to the community a lot more closely, the drop off rate of players would probably be a LOT less than it has been. Because let's look at the numbers, over 500k people own this game, yet only about 2000 players play it consistently these days. That's a pretty huge drop off, especially for a game like this that doesn't really have an ending per se.

    I still remember when the game was first released, I was watching one of my favorite YouTube channels: Funhaus. In a video about another game they were complaining about how boring that game was and that they wanted to play Planet Coaster instead because it looked awesome. So at the end of the video they decided to boot up PC and play... only to be left not being able to do anything because of the clunky interface and difficult systems in place. It was just one of those moments that made me think of how many people have probably done exactly the same thing, and what a waste it is of a game that has so many great aspects to it, yet it's shrouded by these basic things that are just not working for the general public.

    What's the first thing you do when you start a blank slate? You build a path. And you're immediately faced with one of the more frustrating systems in this game. If that's your first impression of something so basic, you won't come back to try anything else out.

    Even though I am very critical of this game, I am still a huge fan of it... in theory. I don't play the game because I get no joy out of of battling with the clunky systems, but I still follow every bit of news regarding the game and watch others play it on YouTube. But I don't play it. And I bet there are a lot of other people in similar situations.

    My point with all this is that while these updates are of course welcome, and doesn't really hurt the game, so far they've also not really helped the game on a deeper level. Something that I think is incredibly important in order to bring back a big chunk of their lost player base. Or at least keep the one they still have. So, while I'm not really a critic of the model they chose to go with, I am a critic of what they chose to do with it. While other games such as No Man's Sky, Cities: Skyline, and basically every MMORPG out there change/improve systems that get the most complaints, I feel like Planet Coaster has stuck by what they gave us to begin with, no matter how clunky or unrefined the system is. And that's my biggest issue with how Frontier is handling the development of this game. They don't actually get in there and really fix things, they basically just throw more stuff on top of what we already have and call it a day. Even the friction slider feels that way, instead of fixing the friction, they let us just manipulate it. Which is fine in theory, but it's a bit of a cop out to a bigger problem, and we'll never have true life-like coasters if it's not fixed from within the engine, because it's not actually really a friction issue if you look at it closely, it's something else that's out of wack.

    Anyway, I've been rambling on for too long. I've basically lost hope that we'll ever see a true QoL update so unfortunately I'll probably just see this game get played and not play it myself. Which is a shame, but still fun, so I'm content.

  13. #33
    JoŽl is offline
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    Originally Posted by Spanky View Post (Source)
    Don't know, if you get all messages behind this forum, but instead of reporting any other here, I have reported my own post by myself, because I've seen, that I go in a wrong direction. I apologize to Seeker for my insults.

    I agree with you about free opinions.
    Thanks for apologising.

    Regarding the thread title; it can be considered misleading, since 'the truth' doesn't seem to be consisting of pure facts in this case; it is mixed with opinions.

    Regarding the subject of the topics, I'm seeing valid feedback from 'both sides'. Let's hope that Frontier uses this feedback for the benefit of the players and community.

    Edit: I have updated the thread title to make it clear that there are also opinions involved.
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  14. #34
    Originally Posted by seeker939 View Post (Source)
    You're right, feedback is the term I was looking for. Well, for my comments I wouldn't object to the term criticism though (at least when it comes to certain topics ).

    I honestly have no idea how pointing some things out like I did in the OP could be seen as provoking a fight, making the forums a hostile place or the like. If anything this should clear up some misunderstandings I would believe.
    Nothing I can do about it I'm afraid. I mean I can of course repeat once again what my intentions are but at this point I doubt it would make any difference.
    it was not my intention to accuse you of having the intention to provoke a fight.

    the effect you intend, and the effect you get, are often different, on a forum.
    for example, i pointed out an effect you might get, but maybe you assumed i am making an accusation that this was your intention.
    therein lies the problem with forums.
    it is predictable that certain topics create a "fight".
    just like it is predictable that (at the moment) quite a lot of feedback gets shouted down.
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  15. #35
    @Spnky: Apology accepted!

    Originally Posted by jamesviago View Post (Source)
    it was not my intention to accuse you of having the intention to provoke a fight.

    the effect you intend, and the effect you get, are often different, on a forum.
    for example, i pointed out an effect you might get, but maybe you assumed i am making an accusation that this was your intention.
    therein lies the problem with forums.
    it is predictable that certain topics create a "fight".
    just like it is predictable that (at the moment) quite a lot of feedback gets shouted down.
    Written communication isn't as easy as talking directly to each other, so thanks for clearing that up.

    Controversial topics can lead to fights, sure. But in my opinion the answer isn't to censor ourselves and avoid these topics altogether. We need to be able to talk about things without escalating threads.

    Some might see no reason to even have this debate because it's too meta and people won't change anyway and I can understand that. But still I'd like to think we can all learn and grow.

  16. #36
    Originally Posted by Spanky View Post (Source)
    Seeker, I don't know what's matter with. Looks like someday something very big has hit you. Otherwise i can't understand your point of view. Right from the beginning, Frontier has never promised free updates. That's it. Leave us alone with your comments. I really think, someone should report you and take you from this forum.
    This is way too heavy Seeker was only voicing his opinion and you think this should be sensored! George Orwell wrote many good books well worth reading some of them!!!

  17. #37
    JoŽl is offline
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    Originally Posted by En Anu View Post (Source)
    This is way too heavy Seeker was only voicing his opinion and you think this should be sensored! George Orwell wrote many good books well worth reading some of them!!!
    Spanky has apologised and that was accepted, therefore it has been settled. Please continue discussing the topic of this thread; do not discuss each others actions or attack each other because of different opinions.

    Thanks.
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  18. #38
    In a nutshell the game was unfinished when introduced Nov 2016 and many elements have not been resolved both for software and design pieces, I was optimistic things would get resolved quickly so the base game had a versatile structure alas one year later and the base game is still incomplete. I supported Frontier at the start it was only from may 2017 on wards I realised that Frontier maybe do not have the capability to sort out the various problems people have discussed (excluding the ever lasting wish list that is something to be considered after base game completion) and if they do well this could be a few years down the road.

    Frontier have to be careful as a big software company could take this style of game with a more advanced ethos and take it to much more improved level!

  19. #39
    Originally Posted by Stream View Post (Source)
    This is basically what I've been trying to say for a long time. Whether you like the current model of game development or not, you HAVE to remember that these updates are not really free. We did pay for a game, and we paid for a full game. What was released a year ago was not a full game, and Frontier has played catch up until this point basically. Which is why I get slightly annoyed when even Frontier is acting as if they're doing us a favor by releasing these updates "for free" - something that was heavily emphasized during the expo. The reality is that without these updates the game would not be nearly as popular anymore. And the bad part is that if they would've listened to the community a lot more closely, the drop off rate of players would probably be a LOT less than it has been. Because let's look at the numbers, over 500k people own this game, yet only about 2000 players play it consistently these days. That's a pretty huge drop off, especially for a game like this that doesn't really have an ending per se.

    I still remember when the game was first released, I was watching one of my favorite YouTube channels: Funhaus. In a video about another game they were complaining about how boring that game was and that they wanted to play Planet Coaster instead because it looked awesome. So at the end of the video they decided to boot up PC and play... only to be left not being able to do anything because of the clunky interface and difficult systems in place. It was just one of those moments that made me think of how many people have probably done exactly the same thing, and what a waste it is of a game that has so many great aspects to it, yet it's shrouded by these basic things that are just not working for the general public.

    What's the first thing you do when you start a blank slate? You build a path. And you're immediately faced with one of the more frustrating systems in this game. If that's your first impression of something so basic, you won't come back to try anything else out.

    Even though I am very critical of this game, I am still a huge fan of it... in theory. I don't play the game because I get no joy out of of battling with the clunky systems, but I still follow every bit of news regarding the game and watch others play it on YouTube. But I don't play it. And I bet there are a lot of other people in similar situations.

    My point with all this is that while these updates are of course welcome, and doesn't really hurt the game, so far they've also not really helped the game on a deeper level. Something that I think is incredibly important in order to bring back a big chunk of their lost player base. Or at least keep the one they still have. So, while I'm not really a critic of the model they chose to go with, I am a critic of what they chose to do with it. While other games such as No Man's Sky, Cities: Skyline, and basically every MMORPG out there change/improve systems that get the most complaints, I feel like Planet Coaster has stuck by what they gave us to begin with, no matter how clunky or unrefined the system is. And that's my biggest issue with how Frontier is handling the development of this game. They don't actually get in there and really fix things, they basically just throw more stuff on top of what we already have and call it a day. Even the friction slider feels that way, instead of fixing the friction, they let us just manipulate it. Which is fine in theory, but it's a bit of a cop out to a bigger problem, and we'll never have true life-like coasters if it's not fixed from within the engine, because it's not actually really a friction issue if you look at it closely, it's something else that's out of wack.

    Anyway, I've been rambling on for too long. I've basically lost hope that we'll ever see a true QoL update so unfortunately I'll probably just see this game get played and not play it myself. Which is a shame, but still fun, so I'm content.
    Long text, but I read it and I agree with you. I struggles with this as well. When Alpha 3 came and when the official release came. I played it. Got frustrated by it. And abandoned it.
    I didn't start play Planet Coaster for real until this summer, a half year later and 3 main updates bigger. Then I started to finally enjoy the management system and the building systems clunkyness was manageable. In this part I disagree, the updates have fixed the management gameplay to start to be interesting. However, not the building aspect. It still frustrates me.

    And yes. It really is like Frontier just place new objects on top of a pile. Literally. This is my biggest frustration:
    Just look what a mess the item browser is. They haven't for once this year taken the time to clean it up. Should really new stuff like the security cameras and sequence manager just be on top of other categories? Aren't there other categories that are, in a pedagogic point of view, more important and more commonly used by the player to stay a main category instead of a sub category?
    And why do they never clean up all the misplaced items between categories? It is really frustrating to go to all other sub categories to find that arcway, fountain or statue I'm after. Instead of the official categories of those items. I'm tired of learning all misplaced items actual places to survive instead of just relax and relay on the category system. This makes the game look very sloopy.
    I better make it's own thread about this. because this is a big issue of the games interface.

    Last comment. Yes we did indeed paid for a full game and we can and should expect this free updates. Because anything else would be "false marketing" by most countries laws; to sell the product with showing of false features lured the consumer to believe they gets and paying for. Lucky this is not the case and this delayed features still being added for free. However, as you said, they are not for free. We already payed for them.
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  20. #40
    I can relate to manny opinions here, and I understand why people get frustrated @ Frontier.
    I can't and won't blame anyone for that, but there are always 2 sides on the coin.

    Yes, planet coaster could use a polish of it's basegame features and trust me they do know, Bo and other Frontier employees said so manny times now.
    I can even tell everyone they have a team working on it, just read between the lines.
    I'm not at all close to the source to know these things, I listen, watch and read almost everything Frontier does say/post.

    Yes, Frontier could be more open about their current development status, but the picture is bigger then that.
    The game industry is REALLY BIG, that also means the competition is REALLY BIG.
    If they would communicate more openly other game companies could (in theorie) steal that knowledge and inplement those things in their own games (faster).
    That's one of the main reasons they keep it for themselfs.

    Another major part has to do with us, the players/customers.
    If they would let us know what they are working on right now, and for some silly, minor reason the developers didn't notice it can't make it to the next (promised) update.
    How would "we" react to that? Yes even more frustrated as we are now.
    It can even be worse, they work on something really really cool, and at the end it's impossible to inplement it into the game... --> for alot of people here it would be the worst day ever.

    This does make it sound simple, but marketing in the game industry isn't at all simple.
    No doubt they have people hired to keep those things in check.
    It's even so if you work for a company in the game industry (even small ones) you often have to sign a non-disclosure agreement.
    So try to understand them too.

    The game industry did change alot the last decade(s). More and more companies see the benifits of involving their community.
    I follow ALOT of companies that do so, since i play(ed) manny different games, so far Frontier is doing alot better then others.
    They even organized an EXPO, I really wish I could have been there, sadly I couldn't make it.

    You know I get frustrated that people just can't or won't understand that the people who work @ Frontier are also human, and that it's "just" their job and most if not all @ Frontier love their jobs.
    That means they do what to they do as fast and devoted as humanly possible. I'm even impressed by their rate of updates and the amount of content they release.
    If they could they would please everyone of us, but you can't make a perfect game in an imperfect world/universe/multi-verse... some things are just impossible.

    We can keep posting all our concerns and frustration on the forum here over and over... it won't change anything because of the above reasons.
    I suggest to instead of beign mad and cranky to encourage Frontier with what they do right, and gently make suggestion where they could improve.
    It would make them happy and work faster and we wouldn't ragequit planet coaster because certain features aren't there YET.

    Look at the bright side of life

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